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Carbon ceramic glowing rotors on STILLEN GTR!


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#1 kyle1 Posted 05 October 2009 - 11:12 AM

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Hey Guys,

We are happy to announce that the carbon ceramic GTR rotors were a huge success on the Targa Newfoundland Rally.  They worked amazingly well and required virtually no service.  Normally on these rallies we take a few pre-cautionary maintanence measures every night such as bleeding the brakes, inspecting the pad wear (usually we change the pads half way through the week) and inspecting and cleaning the holes to remove brake dust build-up.  On the GTR we bled the brakes twice the entire week.  One time getting no air at all and on the fourth night we only got a couple "burps" out of the system.  The brake pads look like they have about 1/2 to 3/4 life left and the cooling holes stayed clean.  It was truly amazing to see how well this system works.

These brakes are ready for pre-sale so please call one of our knowledgable sales people or shoot me a PM or email for more information.  My email is kmillen@stillen.com.

Here is a very short video of some glowing rotors.  I apologize in advance for the poor quality of the video.  It was shot with a simple point and shoot camera so the image stabilization isn't very good but you can clearly see the rotors lit up!  Also I have added the in-car video from the entire stage in the second link.

View My Video




#2 MindlessOath Posted 05 October 2009 - 11:24 AM

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nice! i never seen a race in a neighborhood (maybe a bike race). lol.



#3 Kris@GTRBlog Posted 05 October 2009 - 05:57 PM

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That sounds so tough, can't really get enough of the VR38 with a straight through exhaust sound.


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#4 jaspergtr Posted 05 October 2009 - 06:48 PM

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So how much are these rotors/pads going for (approx)?


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#5 Go!Zilla Posted 05 October 2009 - 07:55 PM

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Lots of cycling between acceleration and then hard on the brakes, didn't seem like much cooling time in between.  Judging by the video footage, day 5 Brigus seemed particularly tough.  Looked like fun going through the tight streets of Newfoundland at that speed, almost video game like, but no room to pass.  Nice job!



#6 kyle1 Posted 05 October 2009 - 08:48 PM

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View Postjaspergtr, on Oct 5 2009, 07:48 PM, said:

So how much are these rotors/pads going for (approx)?


The entire kit including rotors assembled with hats, new floating bobbins and hardware, billet aluminum mounting bracketry to space out the caliper to allow the necessary clearance for the larger rotors. PLUS, brake pads and rotors that are pre-bed (this is VERY important and a $1,500.00 value in itself) is $14,999.00. AP Racing is only able to produce these rotors in very low quantities. Pre-orders are being taken but we will not be shipping any kits until December, then we will get more rotors from AP Racing around March.

One thing to keep in mind is that these rotors are unlike most CCM rotors which you see on Ferrari's or the ZR-1 Corvette. Because of the construction process used in those rotors you are unable to re-surface them and if you get a rock stuck in the caliper, warp the rotor, or otherwise need to repair/re-surface a rotor, you can't. They are non-servicable. The rotors that we use are constructed out of carbon ceramic layers and therefore are able to be re-surfaced. During our testing we actually had our rotors well over 1,400 degrees (torture testing to see how hot we could get them.) We sent them off for re-surfacing and they are the same rotors we used in the Targa Newfoundland Rally. It took us A LOT of work to get the rotors to that temperature, I would be absolutely amazed if anyone else were able to reach those temperatures at a track event and it would be virtually impossible to do it on the street. With these rotors will practically out last the car. You will need to replace pads of course but the rotors themselves will last forever as long as you do not exceed the 1,380 degrees fahrenheit temperature range, and even then like I said...we exceeded that and ours are fine.

If you plan on using these rotors we highly recommend using one of our cooling kits which will be ready very soon as well. The cooling kit consists of electric cooling fans in the front with poly-urethane air ducting channels on the inside of the wheel well which direct airflow to the center of the wheel as well as another "glove" or scoop mounted on top of the caliper. The fans do come with an on/off switch as they are kind of loud so you can keep them off until you get to the track. I will have more information on the cooling kit soon.

One thing to keep in mind is these rotors are coming to you pre-bedded. Meaning they have been properly heat cycled on a brake dyno so that they are ready to go when you get them. One of the big challenges we had during the development process was the bedding in procedure. This was a big challenge and took a day and a half. We never would have been able to properly bed them in and get them to temperature on the street so testing at El Toro marine base was a big help. However, when we were bedding in the rear rotors we got the front rotors too hot which is why we needed to send them out for re-grinding. Because of the struggles we had with the bedding procedure we told AP Racing that these need to come ready to go. We are not willing to let people run these on their own and bed them in on their own. The bedding procedure and brake dyno heat cycling alone is a $1,500.00-$2,000.00 value.

Edited by kyle@stillen, 05 October 2009 - 08:53 PM.




#7 kyle1 Posted 05 October 2009 - 08:51 PM

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View PostGo!Zilla, on Oct 5 2009, 08:55 PM, said:

Lots of cycling between acceleration and then hard on the brakes, didn't seem like much cooling time in between. Judging by the video footage, day 5 Brigus seemed particularly tough. Looked like fun going through the tight streets of Newfoundland at that speed, almost video game like, but no room to pass. Nice job!

We had our active cooling kit running for Gander but you are correct, that stage was incredibly hard on the brakes.  Another reason being, that was one of the warmest days with no rain or any other outside effects that would aid in cooling the brakes.  Gander was a very intense stage that was the ultimate test for the acceleration of the car, the performance of the brakes, and the nerves of the driver and co-driver.  They set a new course record in the GTR for that stage but because of the handicapped scoring system used in Newfoundland, we took a six second penalty.  

Brigus was absolutely intense.  In some areas (the two bridges) the road was maybe a couple inches wider than the GTR.  And they were racing at those speeds, with a forecasted 2 inches of rain on the roads!  As you can see in the video's Steve did a masterful job of driving.



#8 Go!Zilla Posted 05 October 2009 - 09:39 PM

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View Postkyle@stillen, on Oct 5 2009, 10:51 PM, said:

... and the nerves of the driver and co-driver. ...

Brigus was absolutely intense.  In some areas (the two bridges) the road was maybe a couple inches wider than the GTR.  And they were racing at those speeds, with a forecasted 2 inches of rain on the roads!  As you can see in the video's Steve did a masterful job of driving.

Definitely a great effort.  You're right, it takes nerves of steel under those conditions.  I wasn't worried about Steve, but Mike was actually whooping it up there :) !  I always enjoy watching these in-car rally videos with a colorful commentator ... I mean navigator :cheers: .  Reminds me of the TOCA Race Driver 3 game.

I love this shot btw.
Stillen_GT_R_GlowingRotors_CarbonCeramic.jpg
I'll take it down if there is any copyright infringement.



#9 jmunjr Posted 06 October 2009 - 12:41 AM

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Is the bedding in of new pads a big deal with these rotors?


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#10 STI2EVO2GTR Posted 06 October 2009 - 06:17 AM

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I make my stock rotors glow in residential area's all the time what's the big deal?



#11 xwing Posted 06 October 2009 - 11:57 AM

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So we understand the product better:
The replacement of brake pads, would require Turning the Rotors each time, then Bedding In?
1) How much are Brake Pads?
2) $1500-2000 for Bedding In, we understand already.
3) What is total cost for brake pads, turning rotors, and this Very Special Brake Bedding Required?
4) How many times can the rotors be turned, before they must be changed for new rotors?
5) How much are replacement rotors?

Sounds like after a week of good use, the brakepads are at ~50% worn, so clearly replacement pads will be needed on well-used cars sometimes.
We just need to understand the cost of replacing 4 wheels worth of brake pads; it is not just the pads, sounds like.
We understand they would need changing less frequently than iron rotors/pads, please be clear about the replacement costs now.

Edited by xwing, 07 October 2009 - 06:16 AM.




#12 kyle1 Posted 06 October 2009 - 12:42 PM

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View Postjmunjr, on Oct 6 2009, 12:41 AM, said:

Is the bedding in of new pads a big deal with these rotors?

No, the bedding in procedures of new pads is virtually identical to that of a pad on an iron rotor.  Basically you just need to bring the pads up to temperature to cook out the resins inside the pad.  

The bedding procedure for the carbon ceramic brakes is basically transferring the pad material into the rotor so that you create a friction surface.  By themselves carbon ceramic brake rotors have very little friction.  The initial bedding procedure of the first set of rotors and pads is basically liquifying the pad and embedding it's material into the rotor thus creating a friction surface.  This only happens at very high temperatures which are very difficult to achieve on the street.  Which is why we are having this process done on the brake lathe prior to shipping.



#13 kyle1 Posted 06 October 2009 - 01:20 PM

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View Postxwing, on Oct 6 2009, 11:57 AM, said:

So we understand the product better:
The replacement of brake pads, would require Turning the Rotors each time, then Bedding In?
1) How much are Brake Pads?
2) $1500-2000 for Bedding In, we understand already.
3) What is total cost for brake pads, turning rotors, and this Very Special Brake Bedding Required?
4) How many times can the rotors be turned, before they must be changed for new rotors?
5) How much are replacement rotors?

Sounds like after a week of good use, the brakepads are at 50-75% worn, so clearly replacement pads will be needed on well-used cars sometimes.
We just need to understand the cost of replacing 4 wheels worth of brake pads; it is not just the pads, sounds like.
We understand they would need changing less frequently than iron rotors/pads, please be clear about the replacement costs now.

When you replace brake pads you will not need to re-surface the rotor.  As long as you are using a brake pad that is compatible with the brake pad you are replacing you will not need to re-surface the rotors.  As soon as we can get the car back and perform some more testing on a few other brake pad compounds we will have a list of recommended pads.  We do recommend cleaning the rotor surface with a flex hone or a scotch brite pad but that is only to clean the surface, that does not actually remove any of the rotor material.

Replacement brake pads will vary depending on the pad compound we offer.  Some will obviously be more expensive than others.  For example, the pad that we are currently using is the Pagid RS29 brake pad.  It is slightly larger than what currently fits on the car but that will give you an idea of what you can expect for replacement pads.  I believe a full car set for the GTR is currently around $1,000.00.

I'm not sure I understand question #3 but I hope my first two responses in this post helped clarify that the turning of the rotors will only be required in a worst case scenario (overheating/oxidation from extreme temperatures.)  So the cost of turning rotors really won't factor into the brakes unless you reach extreme temperatures and need to clean them up.  Again, we reached those temperatures and it was very difficult to reach those temperatures.  Should you need to have your rotors turned because you overheat them we can have them sent out for re-grinding and you won't need to have them re-bed.  When we sent our rotors back to AP Racing to have them re-ground we actually were able to bolt them right back on to the car and re-bed them just like if they were a cast iron rotor.  They were good to go immediately and required very little work to get them re-bed.

99.9% of the people who purchase these rotors will never need to have them re-surfaced.  As long as you don't have to re-surface the rotors they will last a very long time and will not need to be replaced.  I do not have the exact price for replacement rotors but I will get that for you.

Thanks!

Please feel free to ask any questions.  If I have not thoroughly or clearly answered a question please let me know and I will go back and address your concerns in more detail.  I try to write my replies so that everyone can understand what I'm saying without needing an engineering degree but sometimes I might leave out points that people are interested in.



#14 Bernie (OOParts) Posted 06 October 2009 - 02:03 PM

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So, these use the stock calipers then?


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#15 kyle1 Posted 06 October 2009 - 02:28 PM

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View PostBernie (OOParts), on Oct 6 2009, 03:03 PM, said:

So, these use the stock calipers then?


That is correct.  These use stock calipers with a supplied billet aluminum spacer that raises the caliper to allow clearance for the larger rotors.



#16 underpressure Posted 06 October 2009 - 02:39 PM

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pads and rotors the same material?



#17 kyle1 Posted 06 October 2009 - 02:54 PM

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View Postunderpressure, on Oct 6 2009, 02:39 PM, said:

pads and rotors the same material?

That is a question that will require a specialist like our Brakes manager.  I know the simple answer, no, they are very different materials.  But, he will know the more detailed answer and be able to offer a lot more information.  I will send him an email with this link and I am sure he will get to it very soon.

Thanks!



#18 AP Racing - Chris_B Posted 06 October 2009 - 04:00 PM

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View Postunderpressure, on Oct 6 2009, 01:39 PM, said:

pads and rotors the same material?
The discs are carbon-ceramic (carbon-silicon carbide, to be more specific). The pads showing the best success so far are the Pagid RS29 in a trim specific to this package. We plan on testing more options going forward. Only a few friction companies have sufficient experience with CCM to be relevant at this point.

To further clarify a few earlier points:
As long as the discs have a good pad transfer layer on them already (which is how they will be shipped new), bedding a new set of pads is not very tricky. Fortunately, the GT-R is one of the few cars on the planet in which the driver can monitor his brake deceleration via the Multi-Function Display system. We will be suggesting that to bed in a new pad set (simplified version here!), the driver increases his braking effort gradually to -.5-.6g's. No more than that is necessary. When the required temperature is reached, the binders in the pad go liquid and green fade will be apparent. A good cool down will "freeze" this fresh layer onto the discs and away you go.

The end result is that changing pads with the CCM discs will likely cost less than with iron discs (for the same or similar pad compound anyway!). Only the pads need to be replaced as the rotors are likely to need nothing. The major difference between CCM discs and iron rotors is that the CCM material is not a wear item -- only the pad is. This is the primary reason brake dust is greatly reduced with CCM discs. Much of the brake dust generated by standard brakes is actually the iron coming off of the discs.

How often pad changes will be needed for street driving will depend, just like iron, on how they are used for the most part. During very aggressive use, they will run hotter on CCM discs than on iron, which will increase their wear rate. This is due to the fact that the CCM discs are much lighter (less mass). This is not a big concern on the street, but is the reason why we require a customer run the active cooling package for track use.

Chris



#19 Kunani Posted 06 October 2009 - 04:06 PM

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I think you typed the price wrong, it looks like you typed $14k for rotors.



#20 kyle1 Posted 06 October 2009 - 04:54 PM

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View PostKunani, on Oct 6 2009, 05:06 PM, said:

I think you typed the price wrong, it looks like you typed $14k for rotors.


The complete kit is $14,999.00 for rotors and pads with all of the necessary mounting bracketry, rotors and pads which have already been pre-bed upon delivery to you, rotors with new full floating hats and bobbins and all associated hardware.

Yes it is around $14,000.00 but you get alot more than just rotors.




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