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First Time Out at Buttonwillow Config 13CW

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#1 Sakred Posted 22 December 2011 - 11:18 AM

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Well I took the GTR out for its first track day and the car performed great. My car is a showroom stock 2012 Black Edition with race pads and fluid. The car makes 480whp on Cobb Tuning Socal's mustang Dyno. The temps were in the high 50s and low 60s all day. It was a great day to run the car.

Track Time:
I posted a best time of 2.00.235 with a passenger. This was in the VDC-R setting where VDC would step in occasionally. I was hoping to get the stock car down below the 2 min mark, but traffic and my motivation kept me from reaching my goal. I definitely feel the car has a 1.58 in it stock.  

Track / Car Notes:
The car is surprisingly neutral with the staggered tire setup (was not expecting this). I had a hard time coming out of Riverside at any speed higher then 98mph (on the speedo). I think this is just due to me being scared of the car. I think more seat time should fix this. I noticed on occasions when the car tends to understeer an increase in throttle corrects the line. I realized this late in the day so I couldn't really take advantage of it on my best runs.

My wife and I were doing back to back 20 min session on the car. This caused the car to go into the Low Boost mode on one of my sessions where the car wouldn't boost over 10 psi. Some race gas and cool down fixed this issue. Transmission temps stayed below 240 degrees (Cold day).

I experienced pad knock-back, where full brake pressure would require a small pump before the actual braking zone. I used to have this problem with my Stoptech brakes on my Z as well. I did not expect this on the GTR.

I managed to crack my stock front rotors. Small cracks are visible from the stupid drilled holes in the brake rotors.

Questions:

1) Since my transmission fluid never went past 240 degrees do I still need to replace it right away?
2) Is there a way to get rid of the pad knock back issue on the GTR?
3) Need a reasonable priced rotor for track use. 2k for a set of 2 is not reasonable priced. Any suggestions?

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Hammad Shah

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#2 seanm Posted 22 December 2011 - 01:39 PM

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I have never had a R35 GT-R owner complain of pad knock back.  I think you might have boiled the fluid a little, or it could need a bit of a bleed.   The stock GT-R floating rotor, decent wheel bearings, and lack of reports of knockback from some pretty hardcore guys leans me this way.

Double check your front wheel bearings, and the rest of the front of the car to see if everything is ok. I think a 2012 is too new to really be showing this issue.   I have dealt a bit with pad knockback, and soft pedals on the R34 race car. It was all down to bearings on that car.

Trans temp is fine, it can stay on the normal service schedule.

We will have some rotors in the first part of 2012, at least that is what I am being told.  I have been asking for them, as the AP Curved vane rotors handle a lot more abuse than the stock rotors.  A GT-R is too heavy and too fast to run anything but the best rotors you can get.
http://www.2009gtr.c...s-cracking.html

Hows the left front tire? Next recommendation is to go square on the tires, and move them around on a track day.

Edited by seanm@stillen.com, 22 December 2011 - 01:40 PM.



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#3 Sakred Posted 22 December 2011 - 05:04 PM

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Sean,

I haven't looked at the front left tire. From what I can see the tires held up pretty good. The brake rotors however did not. The pad knock back issue isn't very pronounced. My Z had it much worse. The car would brake fine without the tap but with extra pedal travel. With the tap I would get brake bite from the top of the pedal. I may have boiled the fluid as I am not used to such a heavy car that gathers speed so quickly. Initially I thought the brakes on the car were not that great until someone pointed out that I'm braking from much higher speeds. It was definitely an adjustment as I liked to brake really late and deep with both my S2k and my Z.

S2k was a 2.10 sec car on this same config. Completely stock on street tires.
350Z was a 2.06 sec car on this same config. Stock suspension and breathing mods and NT01s.


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#4 seanm Posted 22 December 2011 - 05:35 PM

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View PostSakred, on 22 December 2011 - 05:04 PM, said:

I haven't looked at the front left tire. From what I can see the tires held up pretty good.  I may have boiled the fluid as I am not used to such a heavy car that gathers speed so quickly. Initially I thought the brakes on the car were not that great until someone pointed out that I'm braking from much higher speeds.

I see you said you bought RBF600, personally, I don't think its good enough for a tracked GT-R with upgraded pads.  Its fine for a street car, but not good enough for a 2 minute BW CCW 13 car.  When I worked on the R34 at World Challenge(1:52), we ran it and boiled it every session until we swapped it for something with a higher heat range.  In the Scion tC it was fine, a lighter car, less heat into the brakes(1:59).

GT-R needs the best of the best for the brakes, its too heavy, and too fast to make any compromises if you want to go fast.

As I said, double check the wheel bearings, double check the hats, make sure everything is ok in the front. You are the first person in 4 years of dealing with this car to say they had any pad knock back.  Either everyone else is driving though it, or you have a different issue.

Edited by seanm@stillen.com, 22 December 2011 - 06:17 PM.



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#5 Goonthree Posted 22 December 2011 - 10:41 PM

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I am pretty sure stock GTR can run under 2 minute no problem in a time trial.



#6 wwjd Posted 23 December 2011 - 12:52 AM

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Very good lap time for the first time out with GTR. I was there but with my M3. I guess you were in the black 2012 BE?

To answer your question:
1 No.
2 I guess better pads and great fluid (like Motul 660 or same level) should help. Also the most important is do the bleeding properly.
3 Stillen J- hook like Sean has already mentioned.


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#7 DocNrock Posted 23 December 2011 - 07:55 AM

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View Postwwjd, on 23 December 2011 - 12:52 AM, said:

Very good lap time for the first time out with GTR. I was there but with my M3. I guess you were in the black 2012 BE?

To answer your question:
1 No.
2 I guess better pads and great fluid (like Motul 660 or same level) should help. Also the most important is do the bleeding properly.
3 Stillen J- hook like Sean has already mentioned.

+1

I've only been there once and my best was a 2:02, but it was only my 10th track day in my life, sooooooo, that's my excuse and I'm sticking to it.  :)

Seriously, your trans fluid is fine for now.  I would agree with better pads and fluid.  I've run a variety of pads and never had knockback problems.  The J hooks, although about $2200 for all four corners, will last a long time with tracking.  My fronts lasted 18 track days and probably could have gone a few more, but I chose to replace them anyway.  The rears still look new with over 20 track days.  OEM's are not going to give you nearly that many track days, although they are just fine for street only driving or cars that just do the 1/4 mile.


2009 Obsidian Black Nissan GT-R Premium. 550 awhp, 544 awtq (Mustang dyno, 91 octane). Dyno tuned by Jon at Cobb SoCal

Auto Club Speedway ROVAL 1:51.450, Willow Springs (big Willow) 1:34.457, Buttonwillow 13cw 2:02.858, SMMR 3.1 2:41.811

Go: Akuma BM intakes with Outerwears prefilters, AMS FMIC, Harman Motive intercooler piping, iD 1000cc injectors, dual Walbro fuel pumps, NGK racing plugs, AAM decatted downpipes, Cobb catted Y-pipe, HKS Legamax exhaust, and Cobb AP with custom tune.

Stop: AP Racing J-hook rotors, Endless ME20 pads, Stillen stainless brake lines, Endless RF-650 fluid.

Handling: Stillen sway bars, Dunlop SportMaxx 285's x 4, KW Coilover Sleeve kit, custom track alignment.

Accoutrements: Traqmate Complete/Chase Cam, GT Motoring tow hook, ARP studs, Project Kics R40 lugnuts. Passenger seat mount Halon extinguisher.


#8 seanm Posted 23 December 2011 - 11:07 AM

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View PostGoonthree, on 22 December 2011 - 10:41 PM, said:

I am pretty sure stock GTR can run under 2 minute no problem in a time trial.

Steve did a 1:56.9 in a stock 2009.  Hes a little quicker than most.   Generally speaking, you are doing well to be near 2 minutes.


http://www.2009gtr.c...el/Buttonwillow

My personal best is 2:01 in an R32 at one of the GT-R track days.

Edited by seanm@stillen.com, 23 December 2011 - 11:09 AM.



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#9 Sakred Posted 27 December 2011 - 10:59 AM

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View Postwwjd, on 23 December 2011 - 12:52 AM, said:

Very good lap time for the first time out with GTR. I was there but with my M3. I guess you were in the black 2012 BE?

To answer your question:
1 No.
2 I guess better pads and great fluid (like Motul 660 or same level) should help. Also the most important is do the bleeding properly.
3 Stillen J- hook like Sean has already mentioned.


Yes that was me in the Black BE. My wife was also sharing the car with me, but I was in the Red group. Which M3 were you in? Timing name (if you don't mind)?

View PostGoonthree, on 22 December 2011 - 10:41 PM, said:

I am pretty sure stock GTR can run under 2 minute no problem in a time trial.


Yeah its definitely possible. I just need some more seat time. I'm positive I'll be under 2 mins my next time out.

View Postseanm@stillen.com, on 22 December 2011 - 05:35 PM, said:

I see you said you bought RBF600, personally, I don't think its good enough for a tracked GT-R with upgraded pads. Its fine for a street car, but not good enough for a 2 minute BW CCW 13 car. When I worked on the R34 at World Challenge(1:52), we ran it and boiled it every session until we swapped it for something with a higher heat range. In the Scion tC it was fine, a lighter car, less heat into the brakes(1:59).

GT-R needs the best of the best for the brakes, its too heavy, and too fast to make any compromises if you want to go fast.

As I said, double check the wheel bearings, double check the hats, make sure everything is ok in the front. You are the first person in 4 years of dealing with this car to say they had any pad knock back. Either everyone else is driving though it, or you have a different issue.


I have never had RBF600 boil on me. After the feedback from you guys, I will try a higher temp fluid the next time I go out.

What is the eta on the 2012 sloted rotors? I know I cant do any more track days on my cracked OEMs anymore.

Hammad


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#10 wwjd Posted 27 December 2011 - 01:37 PM

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I was in the red M3 with a big ass GT wing. I'm Ricky Kwan on the list: http://speedventures...ts/Default.aspx


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#11 Sakred Posted 27 December 2011 - 03:26 PM

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View Postwwjd, on 27 December 2011 - 01:37 PM, said:

I was in the red M3 with a big ass GT wing. I'm Ricky Kwan on the list: http://speedventures...ts/Default.aspx

Wow that's a very good time in the M3. Aero and R comps are the business.


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#12 Greg S. Posted 27 December 2011 - 07:18 PM

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Ricky is fast.  Check out his most recent time at Auto Club.


2013 BE in Pearl White; Xpel clear bra and tint
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#13 Goonthree Posted 27 December 2011 - 07:24 PM

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I went with a friend and he ran 1:51 with mid pipe and catback (stock everything else and tires) at the roval which equal to about 500 hp.  A 1:47 with 500 hp is fast.

View PostGreg S., on 27 December 2011 - 07:18 PM, said:

Ricky is fast.  Check out his most recent time at Auto Club.




#14 DocNrock Posted 28 December 2011 - 07:16 AM

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View PostGoonthree, on 27 December 2011 - 07:24 PM, said:

I went with a friend and he ran 1:51 with mid pipe and catback (stock everything else and tires) at the roval which equal to about 500 hp.  A 1:47 with 500 hp is fast.

+1

My personal best at the ROVAL is also a 1:51, but after looking at my data, a 1:47 is in reach if I wasn't so timid in the banking.  My minimum speed through there was 124.  Increasing that by just 10 mph should shave about 4 seconds off a lap.


2009 Obsidian Black Nissan GT-R Premium. 550 awhp, 544 awtq (Mustang dyno, 91 octane). Dyno tuned by Jon at Cobb SoCal

Auto Club Speedway ROVAL 1:51.450, Willow Springs (big Willow) 1:34.457, Buttonwillow 13cw 2:02.858, SMMR 3.1 2:41.811

Go: Akuma BM intakes with Outerwears prefilters, AMS FMIC, Harman Motive intercooler piping, iD 1000cc injectors, dual Walbro fuel pumps, NGK racing plugs, AAM decatted downpipes, Cobb catted Y-pipe, HKS Legamax exhaust, and Cobb AP with custom tune.

Stop: AP Racing J-hook rotors, Endless ME20 pads, Stillen stainless brake lines, Endless RF-650 fluid.

Handling: Stillen sway bars, Dunlop SportMaxx 285's x 4, KW Coilover Sleeve kit, custom track alignment.

Accoutrements: Traqmate Complete/Chase Cam, GT Motoring tow hook, ARP studs, Project Kics R40 lugnuts. Passenger seat mount Halon extinguisher.


#15 wwjd Posted 28 December 2011 - 05:48 PM

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There's a track weekend at Fontana in Jan. I can't wait to go back with R888's.


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#16 djhartm Posted 28 December 2011 - 07:06 PM

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Those seem like decent times.

After reading this and watching some of the on-track videos, what is amazing to me is how easy it is to drive this a car fast; you basically just sit, steer, shift & mash the gas/brake pedals; the computers and AWD do all the rest.

Having raced in the AFM for several years, I can tell you it takes a lot of skill to get below 2:00 on a motorcycle, and the best riders are currently turning 1:50 flat on #13. These guys are in incredible physical shape & have skills up the wazoo. That Joe Schmo can show up on on a stock car & be just 10 seconds off is both amazing and frustrating...

Edited by djhartm, 28 December 2011 - 07:09 PM.




#17 DocNrock Posted 29 December 2011 - 06:55 AM

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View Postdjhartm, on 28 December 2011 - 07:06 PM, said:


After reading this and watching some of the on-track videos, what is amazing to me is how easy it is to drive this a car fast; you basically just sit, steer, shift & mash the gas/brake pedals; the computers and AWD do all the rest.

Having raced in the AFM for several years, I can tell you it takes a lot of skill to get below 2:00 on a motorcycle, and the best riders are currently turning 1:50 flat on #13. These guys are in incredible physical shape & have skills up the wazoo. That Joe Schmo can show up on on a stock car & be just 10 seconds off is both amazing and frustrating...

That's one way to do it, but you don't become a better driver that way, as the nannys are always correcting your errors.  While the AWD helps put the power down on corner exit, the best way to get fast in this car is to run in R mode and do whatever it takes to keep traction control from kicking in.  The car will give you a lot of latitude for sliding in the corners as long as it is smooth.  Anything erratic and the R mode traction control will kick in.  The same goes with mid corner and corner exit throttle application.

Your point about Joe Schmo showing up and being fast is well-taken.  While my best at BW#13cw was only a 2:02 (my 10th track day in my life), I had a pro instructor, Billy Johnson.  So I could compare my data to his, I had him take my car out.  His best was a 1:55.  At the end of my time with him, I had gotten down to a 2:02, 7 seconds off a very winning Grand Am pro.  But I started slow and smooth and gradually built speed.  If the traction control kicked in, that meant I made an error and I did something different the next time in that particular corner to keep it smoother and not trigger the traction control.  After reviewing the Traqmate data of my best lap, I can easily see where I could pick up two or three seconds approching and going through Riverside and entry speed into the sweeper before the esses.

If the OP ran a 2:06 in a 350Z, he clearly has signifcant experience at this track, and tracking in general.

But I fully agree, its an amazing car that is much easier than most to drive fast.


2009 Obsidian Black Nissan GT-R Premium. 550 awhp, 544 awtq (Mustang dyno, 91 octane). Dyno tuned by Jon at Cobb SoCal

Auto Club Speedway ROVAL 1:51.450, Willow Springs (big Willow) 1:34.457, Buttonwillow 13cw 2:02.858, SMMR 3.1 2:41.811

Go: Akuma BM intakes with Outerwears prefilters, AMS FMIC, Harman Motive intercooler piping, iD 1000cc injectors, dual Walbro fuel pumps, NGK racing plugs, AAM decatted downpipes, Cobb catted Y-pipe, HKS Legamax exhaust, and Cobb AP with custom tune.

Stop: AP Racing J-hook rotors, Endless ME20 pads, Stillen stainless brake lines, Endless RF-650 fluid.

Handling: Stillen sway bars, Dunlop SportMaxx 285's x 4, KW Coilover Sleeve kit, custom track alignment.

Accoutrements: Traqmate Complete/Chase Cam, GT Motoring tow hook, ARP studs, Project Kics R40 lugnuts. Passenger seat mount Halon extinguisher.


#18 Sakred Posted 29 December 2011 - 12:57 PM

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View Postdjhartm, on 28 December 2011 - 07:06 PM, said:

Those seem like decent times.

After reading this and watching some of the on-track videos, what is amazing to me is how easy it is to drive this a car fast; you basically just sit, steer, shift & mash the gas/brake pedals; the computers and AWD do all the rest.

Having raced in the AFM for several years, I can tell you it takes a lot of skill to get below 2:00 on a motorcycle, and the best riders are currently turning 1:50 flat on #13. These guys are in incredible physical shape & have skills up the wazoo. That Joe Schmo can show up on on a stock car & be just 10 seconds off is both amazing and frustrating...

Generally speaking on most technical tracks a car will be faster then sports bikes. Just looking at the times at BW will give you an idea. The track record is a 1:45 I believe, and that's set by a Radical with a number of street based cars breaking the 1:50 sec barrier.


View PostDocNrock, on 29 December 2011 - 06:55 AM, said:


If the OP ran a 2:06 in a 350Z, he clearly has signifcant experience at this track, and tracking in general.

But I fully agree, its an amazing car that is much easier than most to drive fast.

I have a good amount of experience on this track. I am by no means an expert. I had VDC in R mode, and couldn't help but think I would have been a lot faster without it cutting in when I would upset the car.

The stories of these race drivers and their times is making me want to get back out there and set a note worthy lap. What was done to your car when Billy Johnson ran the 1:55 lap?

At this rate I wont modify my car untill I get a 1:57 or below.

Hammad


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#19 seanm Posted 29 December 2011 - 01:10 PM

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View PostSakred, on 29 December 2011 - 12:57 PM, said:

. Just looking at the times at BW will give you an idea. The track record is a 1:45 I believe, and that's set by a Radical with a number of street based cars breaking the 1:50 sec barrier.
The stories of these race drivers and their times is making me want to get back out there and set a note worthy lap. What was done to your car when Billy Johnson ran the 1:55 lap?At this rate I wont modify my car untill I get a 1:57 or below.

Christine has gone 1:41:0.  Evo. http://www.motoiq.co...domination.aspx

FXMD NSX has gone 1:41:9

Going 1:57 with a stock car would be good. From your times, I think you can slang the car around the track pretty well.  Good luck with it.  Are you doing any video/data logging? You can take off huge chunks of time going over the videos and critiquing yourself.


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#20 Sakred Posted 03 January 2012 - 01:45 PM

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View Postseanm@stillen.com, on 29 December 2011 - 01:10 PM, said:

Christine has gone 1:41:0.  Evo. http://www.motoiq.co...domination.aspx

FXMD NSX has gone 1:41:9

Going 1:57 with a stock car would be good. From your times, I think you can slang the car around the track pretty well.  Good luck with it.  Are you doing any video/data logging? You can take off huge chunks of time going over the videos and critiquing yourself.

I stand corrected. I have video footage of the run but no telemetry data. My best times were ran in traffic when I cam across a patch of fast cars. I believe my fastest lap was chasing a formula Mazda car.

Hammad


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