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ProEFI and the GR6 transmission

trans tuning

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#101 racing fan Posted 04 February 2013 - 02:24 PM

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To set the record straight...

We ran 7s on SW's car on an AEM while the car weighed 3100 lbs with SW in it. The AEM wasn't ideal, but it got the job done. We switched to a Motec later on because of an issue we had with the AEM box.

We don't have a lot of events to run around here so the best way for us to get a well prepped track is to rent the track and have them prep it for us.


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#102 Anders_R35 Posted 04 February 2013 - 02:31 PM

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View PostTunerChris@D3PE, on 04 February 2013 - 10:58 AM, said:

FUEL STRATEGY:

ProEFI takes an additional step by modeling the most common injectors in house and providing this data to its end users. This process produces very detailed results. Basically the injectors are flowed using a ProEFI ECU in a controlled environment and the resulting characterization gives the ECU the information it needs to give a darn close to exact CC per minute. I have done this myself at ProEFIs office. I was able to ask the ECU for 25cc per min, up to 1800CC per minute and I got exactly what I asked for every time.


Isn't that information only relevant for the exact set of injectors tested on your bench? When a customer buys a set of flow matched injectors there will be some variance on flow rate due to manufacturing tolerances, rendering your test data invalid? Or are you saying the Pro efi can calculate the flow rate of any set if flow matched injectors?

On the stand-alone vs piggyback debate, if your ECU running stand-alone has CELs on the dash then either more work is required on integration or it is not a true stand-alone. There are no dash lights with Syvecs.

Does the Pro efi transmit engine sensor data on the CAN, so the data can be recorded on the cars Black box? With out this Black box data Nissan will likely fail any warranty query instantly, as this info is downloaded at every service or when the car has a fault.

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#103 thistle Posted 04 February 2013 - 03:59 PM

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View PostTunerChris@D3PE, on 04 February 2013 - 11:43 AM, said:

What you missed, is how you think the ProEFI works on the GTR to keep the tranny together. This I cannot give away the answer too ;) .. But I can tell you, its not how you think..


As I expected, the issue is obfuscated, all this thread contains is hype and no substance. I've drawn my conclusion in the absence of evidence that by your own definition ProEFI is a piggyback.



#104 TymSwitzer Posted 04 February 2013 - 04:04 PM

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This looks like a relatively aggressive thread, but it was brought to my attention that there may have been some misunderstanding or misinformation regarding the Syvecs ecu's as applied to the GTR and some mention of Switzer so I would like to address those items and stay out of the banter.

First of all, the Syvecs is indeed a completely stand alone unit as run in the GTR.  Not being run in piggyback and not sharing the CAN bus with the OEM ecu.  You unplug the OE ecu, put it on a shelf and plug in the Syvecs unit and start tuning.  The Syvecs S8 ECU employed as the basis of the Syvecs GTR kit has a very small footprint and mounts in the OEM ECU location.

Regarding CAN bus integration, we have completely reverse engineered the entire CAN bus in the GTR.  The Syvecs ECU communicates (sends and receives data) on the CAN bus allowing us to preserve and properly scale data to oem systems like the instrument cluster, AWD controller, TCM (not mounted in the transaxle incidentally as someone mentioned), ABS and Stability Management system, etc.  The Syvecs unit actively monitors values from all stability sensors as well as the factory GPS sensor and makes use of that system as needed or as we see fit.  There is no need for an OEM ecu reflash to run the GTR on Syvecs because there is NO oem ecu left in the vehicle.  There are no "check engine lights" unless we turn it on (which we do now with our latest firmware update when we have a torque reduction/limp in request from other systems... from the transmission controller for example.)

As far as transmission protection.  This definitely needs clarification.  The Syvecs GTR ECU absolutely has clutch protection as we utilize the OEM TCM diagnostics and respond to torque reduction requests as sent on the CAN bus to the Syvecs engine controller.  While we also have a simple ignition cut/timing retard to reduce engine power during clutch exchange (slip) as can be employed on other solutions by monitoring transmission input speed vs. output speed and using limiter for x amount of allowed slip, we prefer to use the oem tcm diagnostics and respond to those requests.  If you are controlling the throttles on the GTR as we are with the Syvecs ECU and you cannot respond to actual torque reduction requests by the TCM you cannot react to a clutch overheat code, broken shift fork, broken gear, sensor failure or any other number of issues we've seen with the GR6 transmission.  In short, clutch protection should not be the only thing on the protection/shut the engine down agenda.  For example... if we encounter an instance where the clutches start to slip during a run, the oem TCM will detect that slip and if outside specified limits will request a torque reduction.  Once that request is made, the Syvecs ECU will (if the feature is not disabled intentionally) reduce engine torque immediately with a timing retard strategy, then throttle reduction... and if the condition persists (i.e. operator won't lift off throttle) we will put the car into a limp in state.  All of this happens within milliseconds.  Yes, while a simple limiter/timing retard strategy based on gross slip is one way to protect the clutches, it really doesn't offer the same level of response we can give when working in direct conjunction (via CAN) with the OEM TCM and its diagnostic capability.  The same applies to the AWD controller and the AWD clutches.  We control, monitor and respond to that as well via direct communication with our ecu.

With our on board high speed logging, we can capture issues with other systems integrated with our engine management parameters.  This saves us an immense amount of time when trying to troubleshoot a problem.

As far as why we would be converting Jason Purdum's Flex Fuel E1K project car to Syvecs from ProEFI.  That's really just our choice, but would seem obvious given the fact that we formed Syvecs North America last year to push forward our own in house development and control the outcome of that development.  We have worked to provide a completely integrated stand alone solution for our high powered GTRs and other platforms that provides us with all of the features we wish to have.  We have obviously invested a great deal of work in this effort and will run a system that we are intimately familiar with front end and back.

Quite frankly any combination can be tuned to make outstanding all out drag passes even on constant flow injectors and magneto ignitions.  Just ask the Top Fuel boys... they've been doing it for years.  In the end it comes down to having the features you need and want in a package that you are comfortable with using to get the job done to your satisfaction.

Hope this clears up any confusion as it pertains to the Syvecs Engine Management for the GTR.


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#105 Jason S. Posted 04 February 2013 - 04:35 PM

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View PostTymSwitzer, on 04 February 2013 - 04:04 PM, said:

This looks like a relatively aggressive thread, but it was brought to my attention that there may have been some misunderstanding or misinformation regarding the Syvecs ecu's as applied to the GTR and some mention of Switzer so I would like to address those items and stay out of the banter.

First of all, the Syvecs is indeed a completely stand alone unit as run in the GTR.  Not being run in piggyback and not sharing the CAN bus with the OEM ecu.  You unplug the OE ecu, put it on a shelf and plug in the Syvecs unit and start tuning.  The Syvecs S8 ECU employed as the basis of the Syvecs GTR kit has a very small footprint and mounts in the OEM ECU location.

Regarding CAN bus integration, we have completely reverse engineered the entire CAN bus in the GTR.  The Syvecs ECU communicates (sends and receives data) on the CAN bus allowing us to preserve and properly scale data to oem systems like the instrument cluster, AWD controller, TCM (not mounted in the transaxle incidentally as someone mentioned), ABS and Stability Management system, etc.  The Syvecs unit actively monitors values from all stability sensors as well as the factory GPS sensor and makes use of that system as needed or as we see fit.  There is no need for an OEM ecu reflash to run the GTR on Syvecs because there is NO oem ecu left in the vehicle.  There are no "check engine lights" unless we turn it on (which we do now with our latest firmware update when we have a torque reduction/limp in request from other systems... from the transmission controller for example.)

As far as transmission protection.  This definitely needs clarification.  The Syvecs GTR ECU absolutely has clutch protection as we utilize the OEM TCM diagnostics and respond to torque reduction requests as sent on the CAN bus to the Syvecs engine controller.  While we also have a simple ignition cut/timing retard to reduce engine power during clutch exchange (slip) as can be employed on other solutions by monitoring transmission input speed vs. output speed and using limiter for x amount of allowed slip, we prefer to use the oem tcm diagnostics and respond to those requests.  If you are controlling the throttles on the GTR as we are with the Syvecs ECU and you cannot respond to actual torque reduction requests by the TCM you cannot react to a clutch overheat code, broken shift fork, broken gear, sensor failure or any other number of issues we've seen with the GR6 transmission.  In short, clutch protection should not be the only thing on the protection/shut the engine down agenda.  For example... if we encounter an instance where the clutches start to slip during a run, the oem TCM will detect that slip and if outside specified limits will request a torque reduction.  Once that request is made, the Syvecs ECU will (if the feature is not disabled intentionally) reduce engine torque immediately with a timing retard strategy, then throttle reduction... and if the condition persists (i.e. operator won't lift off throttle) we will put the car into a limp in state.  All of this happens within milliseconds.  Yes, while a simple limiter/timing retard strategy based on gross slip is one way to protect the clutches, it really doesn't offer the same level of response we can give when working in direct conjunction (via CAN) with the OEM TCM and its diagnostic capability.  The same applies to the AWD controller and the AWD clutches.  We control, monitor and respond to that as well via direct communication with our ecu.

With our on board high speed logging, we can capture issues with other systems integrated with our engine management parameters.  This saves us an immense amount of time when trying to troubleshoot a problem.

As far as why we would be converting Jason Purdum's Flex Fuel E1K project car to Syvecs from ProEFI.  That's really just our choice, but would seem obvious given the fact that we formed Syvecs North America last year to push forward our own in house development and control the outcome of that development.  We have worked to provide a completely integrated stand alone solution for our high powered GTRs and other platforms that provides us with all of the features we wish to have.  We have obviously invested a great deal of work in this effort and will run a system that we are intimately familiar with front end and back.

Quite frankly any combination can be tuned to make outstanding all out drag passes even on constant flow injectors and magneto ignitions.  Just ask the Top Fuel boys... they've been doing it for years.  In the end it comes down to having the features you need and want in a package that you are comfortable with using to get the job done to your satisfaction.

Hope this clears up any confusion as it pertains to the Syvecs Engine Management for the GTR.

Tym, thanks for the post! To clarify, you aren't controlling the trans either. Without spending too much time on this (as we are both incredibly busy), CAN is not faster than live engine monitoring. In other words, we are watching the crank in real time, so when we see clutch slip, we can respond faster than getting the information through another controllers monitor then decision to do something about it.

If it's so easy to go out and make an all out drag pass with constant flow injectors and magneto's, then.....why haven't you with all of the technology at your finger tips? And don't tell me you and your customers don't care about drag racing, I know better! :)



#106 Garth@Undercover Posted 04 February 2013 - 05:10 PM

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View PostAnders_R35, on 04 February 2013 - 02:31 PM, said:


Does the Pro efi transmit engine sensor data on the CAN, so the data can be recorded on the cars Black box? With out this Black box data Nissan will likely fail any warranty query instantly, as this info is downloaded at every service or when the car has a fault.

Anders
Anything flashed and tuned is recorded and thus warranty void, end of story on that topic



#107 TymSwitzer Posted 04 February 2013 - 05:39 PM

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View PostJason S., on 04 February 2013 - 04:35 PM, said:

Tym, thanks for the post! To clarify, you aren't controlling the trans either. Without spending too much time on this (as we are both incredibly busy), CAN is not faster than live engine monitoring. In other words, we are watching the crank in real time, so when we see clutch slip, we can respond faster than getting the information through another controllers monitor then decision to do something about it.

If it's so easy to go out and make an all out drag pass with constant flow injectors and magneto's, then.....why haven't you with all of the technology at your finger tips? And don't tell me you and your customers don't care about drag racing, I know better! :)

How do you know we haven't? ;)  Sighting that as a reference point of technology makes me scratch my head in wonder because I distinctly remember going to the track as a kid in the 70's watching those setups run.  :wink:

As far as trans control... I never stated that we are controlling it (at the moment, on customer cars).  I simply stated that we are responding to its request for a reduction.  We have proven to ourselves that this strategy works best for us and has on multiple occasions saved the clutches on high load full power runs.  Whether it's quicker than another method is moot if what we are currently doing has proven to be more than fast enough while also being able to reduce power for other undesirable events that might take place in the gearbox if there's a problem.  

I am truly very busy, but I don't mind explaining our course of action at all if I can get near a keyboard.

I've got to get back to that constant flow injected, magneto fired Top Fuel GTR in the back of the shop.  It's now after hours.  ;)

Best,
Tym


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#108 TunerChris@D3PE Posted 04 February 2013 - 06:16 PM

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Tym.. is it SWIT-ZER or SWYZER? Curious cause I've heard it both ways.


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#109 ohiogtr1 Posted 04 February 2013 - 06:33 PM

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By the far the best thread in over a year on Nagtroc/gtrlife or whatever it's called now.  Getting a bit closer to Supraforums every day now....:)

Saad, hope to see you and Jason at TX this year.  Let's set-up a race?


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#110 juniorAWD Posted 04 February 2013 - 06:47 PM

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View Postohiogtr1, on 04 February 2013 - 06:33 PM, said:

By the far the best thread in over a year on Nagtroc/gtrlife or whatever it's called now.  Getting a bit closer to Supraforums every day now.... :)

Saad, hope to see you and Jason at TX this year.  Let's set-up a race?

+1

:thumbsup:


This is pretty damn cool



Heating up those M&Hs and other drag radials might make for some nice short times and 1/8th

Edited by juniorAWD, 04 February 2013 - 06:55 PM.



Careful who you deal with http://www.gtrlife.com/forums/topic/88485-my-experience-with-diesel350-not-a-great-one/
10' Blk/Blk Premium GONE
12' Blue BE 10.18@138.64 on the 20s 1.71 60ft / 6.02 60-130 vbox on the street, Bolt on + e85 JRTUNED
NOW 1244WHP//940TQ 6266 COBB/BL/ETS POWERED JRTUNED 3.31 60-130 full weight, 9.0@170.54 Fastest 3.8ltr GTR
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#111 Anders_R35 Posted 04 February 2013 - 06:59 PM

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View PostGarth@Undercover, on 04 February 2013 - 05:10 PM, said:


Anything flashed and tuned is recorded and thus warranty void, end of story on that topic

Wrong, dealers have been sympathetic in many cases. I had my bell housing replaced under warranty despite being tuned. Dealer downloaded black box data, but they still honoured the warranty. But take away their precious black box data and Nissan Japan aren't going to play ball at all.


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Alcon 400mm front discs, Alcon 380mm rear discs, Pagid RS29 pads, Castrol SRF Fluid, Carbon bonnet vents, Mines steering wheel

#112 Garth@Undercover Posted 04 February 2013 - 07:06 PM

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View PostAnders_R35, on 04 February 2013 - 06:59 PM, said:

Wrong, dealers have been sympathetic in many cases. I had my bell housing replaced under warranty despite being tuned. Dealer downloaded black box data, but they still honoured the warranty. But take away their precious black box data and Nissan Japan aren't going to play ball at all.

Bellhousings a known factory issue with the GTR.  If your rod was hanging through the side of the block or metal in your trans it would've been denied. Our car with proefi has had warranty work as well.  You can bet though if it was internal failure it would have been declined.  The dealer didn't even know there was anything done to it until they noticed the extra O2 sensors.



#113 juniorAWD Posted 04 February 2013 - 07:15 PM

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View PostGarth@Undercover, on 04 February 2013 - 07:06 PM, said:

Bellhousings a known factory issue with the GTR.  If your rod was hanging through the side of the block or metal in your trans it would've been denied. Our car with proefi has had warranty work as well.  You can bet though if it was internal failure it would have been declined.  The dealer didn't even know there was anything done to it until they noticed the extra O2 sensors.

Cant use the OEM o2s?

Also my 1st gtr had the trans full replaced under warranty with mods, including a COBB AP. It had a solenoid failure which is internal.


Careful who you deal with http://www.gtrlife.com/forums/topic/88485-my-experience-with-diesel350-not-a-great-one/
10' Blk/Blk Premium GONE
12' Blue BE 10.18@138.64 on the 20s 1.71 60ft / 6.02 60-130 vbox on the street, Bolt on + e85 JRTUNED
NOW 1244WHP//940TQ 6266 COBB/BL/ETS POWERED JRTUNED 3.31 60-130 full weight, 9.0@170.54 Fastest 3.8ltr GTR
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#114 MindlessOath Posted 04 February 2013 - 10:51 PM

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I think the only major issues with pro-efi is that of the knock sensor control on the gtr. otherwise a formidable solution, but i wouldnt trust it for that alone.

im pretty upset how some of you guys replied in this thread. there is really only a few good contributions and good discussions here. no thanks to the few of you that made this thread turn to shit. thanks for proving to me and everyone else your true colors guys. i guess its true what everyone says.

Edited by MindlessOath, 04 February 2013 - 10:52 PM.




#115 930chas Posted 05 February 2013 - 05:42 AM

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View PostMindlessOath, on 04 February 2013 - 10:51 PM, said:

I think the only major issues with pro-efi is that of the knock sensor control on the gtr. otherwise a formidable solution, but i wouldnt trust it for that alone.


Here is a direct quote from Jason regarding knock control for the gtr, so I don't know that your concern is valid.
"We absolutely utilize both knock channels PROPERLY! Our knock system is knock window/frequency based, so it detects real knock, just like the factory does! There is a really informative video on our website under the video section that describes its functionality in depth. It's two parts, and kind of long, but thorough!  http://proefi.com/in.../knock-control/ "



#116 Garth@Undercover Posted 05 February 2013 - 08:34 AM

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View Post930chas, on 05 February 2013 - 05:42 AM, said:

Here is a direct quote from Jason regarding knock control for the gtr, so I don't know that your concern is valid.
"We absolutely utilize both knock channels PROPERLY! Our knock system is knock window/frequency based, so it detects real knock, just like the factory does! There is a really informative video on our website under the video section that describes its functionality in depth. It's two parts, and kind of long, but thorough!  http://proefi.com/in.../knock-control/ "

Also are comprehensive screen shots in my earlier post.



#117 Garth@Undercover Posted 05 February 2013 - 08:45 AM

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View PostjuniorAWD, on 04 February 2013 - 06:47 PM, said:

+1

:thumbsup:


This is pretty damn cool



Heating up those M&Hs and other drag radials might make for some nice short times and 1/8th

Congrats!  This is simply done by interupting front driveshaft speed sensor signal.



#118 BoyanR Posted 05 February 2013 - 09:29 AM

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View PostGarth@Undercover, on 05 February 2013 - 08:45 AM, said:

Congrats!  This is simply done by interupting front driveshaft speed sensor signal.

No... LOL ( please let me know where that sensor is... )



#119 Garth@Undercover Posted 05 February 2013 - 09:46 AM

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Two wire magnetic pick up located above the forward driveshaft.  If the signal is interrupted you can do burnouts all you wish.

Edited by Garth@Undercover, 05 February 2013 - 10:27 AM.




#120 Garth@Undercover Posted 05 February 2013 - 10:31 AM

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I should be more clear on this.  Whether you disconnect/interrupt that pick up or do you what "your" ecu is doing.  The results regardless will be damaging if done for any length of time.  Therefor not a good idea ever!!




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