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#21 AutoXGTR

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Posted 05 April 2010 - 06:14 PM

in 2 weeks im doing something for the first time called a "crosstrial".. its like a step up from a regular autocross and the course is about a 90 second course on a airport runway that you make 2 consecutive passes on it per run...and its laid out more like a small road course than a autoX ( i dont think it will have slaloms or boxes or any pivots) they said its for autoXers who want to bridge into time trials and top speed for most cars last year was about 80mph so in the GTR ... who knows.. will report back how it goes. this might finally be an event the GTR can stretch its legs a little at and get into 3rd gear atleast


Some years ago SCCA had-

Solo 2 which is now called Solo and is autocross

and
Solo which was getting on the track to do lapping with a license and rollcage or rollbar and protection (protective clothes and SA rated helmet, etc)

I used to go to the events and be a course worker and at the end they would run two 15 minute track session with about 7 or 8 cars each to do lapping but limited passing. Only drivers no instructors, most were experienced on the track. We broke up into two groups based on experience. Cost about $50 but $25 if you were a course worker.

I think you will like it but be careful not to go too wild. Try to see what you top speed is. I often will use a scan gauge II on the OBDII port to record max numbers. I figure you can do 70 easily. I've done 65 at autocross but can't say that resulted in a good clean and fast run.

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#22 AutoXGTR

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Posted 15 April 2010 - 03:28 AM

Not sure if I should make this topic a new thread or not but will begin it here-

After a full season of using the GTR as an autocross car here are some learnings.

A. For the person just starting to autocross:

The GTR is not legal for any stock class in SCCA Solo events of Autocross. It is currently in A Street Prepared. Read the rules as to the limits of legal upgrades.

The GTR is a good platform but it is heavy. There is more performance available than most new drivers can harness and you are limited only by your level of driving skill.
Expect to finish as high as top 20% of drivers based on raw time but with the class that the GTR falls in you'd be lucky to finish in the top third on PAX overall.
Within ASP class in SCCA you can do well but not with street tires- maybe if your competition has worn R compounds you can try to keep up.

You can run the GTR completely stock, there is enough stiffness in the stock suspension to limit body roll but the smoother you steer and use the brakes and throttle the better control you will have and the less you will tend to understeer and oversteer. Too much speed entering tight turns will result in moderate understeer and too much throttle on exit of turns can lead to oversteer especially with runflats. The stock front 255/40-20 tires are fairly narrow for the GTR and barely keep up, while the rear tires seem to be OK with most of the wear on the front outer and inner edges.

Stock alignment can be adjusted and made more suited for handling but will result in more tire wear. Front and rear camber can be made -1.8 degrees, front toe 1/8" out and rear toe 1/16" toe in.
You can also leave the alignment at stock track settings and it would be OK. Expect tire life to be shortened by about one third vs street only use. The runflats will work in any weather dry or wet.
Use tire pressures that are about 33-34 psi in front and 31-32 psi in the rears vs stock 29 psi.

The car number magnet will work on the rear quarter panel behind the front door which is aluminum. A clear bra will help to reduce any damage from rocks. Tape is possible but a hassle.
Be sure to use a clean air filter for events.

B. For the experienced autocross driver new to the GTR:

Try to start with a stock GTR and later you can modify it. This will give you greater appreciation for the upgrades you did. Since power is sufficient you can start with suspension upgrades. Wheels and tires are first then shocks and springs followed by swaybars. Aggressive alignment is possible once ride height is lowered. About -2.4 degrees front and rear are possible with a one inch drop in suspension.
Lowering springs will improve handling and keep the stock shock console adjustments, street comfort can be better than stock. Coilovers or sleeves will allow for any ride height and slightly better handling but costs more. Labor is the same for springs or full coilovers.

Wheels can be 18" or 19" if you want to install R compound tires. Hoosier A6 (soft rubber) or R6 (firmer rubber better for two driver autocross or track) come in 18" or 19" but not 20". Kumho V710 only comes in sizes up to 18". Hoosiers are their best for about 6+ events while Kumho V710 can be good for about double that or one full season/year of events. You can use any tire longer but it tends to heat cycle and get harder and less grippy with time. Despite this some drivers will be able to do well for two full seasons even on worn tires due to driving with more skill. At this time there are no really good autocrossing tires in 20". The stock 20" rims are not bad so if someday there are better 20" R compounds then this would be an option.

18" wheel choices are limited by the large front brake calipers. Enkei GTC-01 18x10 +22et are a proven wheel that fits front and rear. Tires can be 305 or 315/30-18. You can also get custom rims and go wider in the rear. Typically you want the widest possible tire and widest possible rims. A wider front wheel and tire will help to reduce some understeer.
19" rims are better than 18" but can cost more, Volk RE-30 19x10 in front and 19x11 rear is good running 295mm front and 315mm rear tires. Spacers can be run front and rear from about 10-15mm in front and 15-20mm in the rears. Either longer studs and hubcentric spacers can be used or Ichiba version II spacers that use the stock studs.

Upgrading the wheels and tires while using stock suspension will be an improvement but without making the supension lower and stiffer it's difficult to get the full benefit of the better tires. The advantage is you do get some benefit and after you change wheels back to stock you get your full warranty and street configuration for daily use. It is arguable that a good suspension upgrade feels better than stock for daily driving espeically if it is adjustable or if it is not overly stiff. Lowering springs by Swift, Eibach and Tanabe will work both for autocross and street use.

To reduce understeer you can add either front and rear swaybars adding stiffness to both with slightly more stiffness setting in the rear or add only a slightly stiffer rear bar such as one by Whiteline.
Swift swaybars are designed to be less stiff and may be suitable for autocross and street use while many of the other bar sets are quite a bit stiffer suitable for track use but your results may vary with your driving style and choice of suspension upgrades and alignment. I think if you can minimize understeer that will help the most, and overly stiff rear bar can lead to more oversteer which can be more difficult to control. You can adjust tire pressures to help with handling, try slightly higher front tire pressures to reduce understeer. If you have an adjustable suspension try slightly softer front shock settings to reduce understeer.

I have also used B Woody endlinks front and rear and while they are stiffer than stock parts they are not essential for improving handling. I would say there is minimal improvement that I was able to appreciate. So far the only adjustable endlinks are from the Stillen front and rear swaybar set- these are good if you need to do corner balancing as part of a full coilover install.

C. For the experienced autocross driver that has driven their GTR and are ready for more:

See the upgrades listed above. Add upgrades to the exhaust midpipes and intake at least. Add Cobb AP with a canned (version 2.0) or custom tune. Read the rule book on what is legal for the class you are in or wish to compete in. ASP class does not allow upgrades to the turbos, BOVs, or injectors. You must have a full interior. A racing harness is nice to have, a CG lock for the seatbelt is workable.
Custom extra wide rims and wider tires are a plus but you may add more weight, tighter fit and higher cost. Really wide rims may need wider fenders.

Be careful on the extent of your upgrades as engine mods can bump you out of basic classes like Street Modified and ASP, read the rules. You can run any plugs, any fluids, no race gas only premium pump gas. Some regions are more strict about exhaust loudness so if you have a variable valve exhaust that might help vs one with no mufflers or resonators.

D. For the crazy GTR owner ready for anything:

This is more for fun than anything else. Probably 500-550 whp is enough for any autocross GTR. Max out the suspension. The eligible legal class PAX handicap will be difficult to overcome.
You can run a track ready GTR at autocross but the runs will be short. Save some tire for funruns.

OK, that's plenty to get you started and going to driving school is always good no matter what car you drive and what class you are in. If you want to understand autocrossing up close then get involved with the behind the scenes aspects of the sport such as- course design and setup, timing, registration, tech inspection, training and supervision of course workers, or be a safety steward.

Posted Image
Stock wheels and tires, swift springs with 1" drop.

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#23 MC

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Posted 17 April 2010 - 10:05 PM





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#24 AutoXGTR

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Posted 18 April 2010 - 03:07 AM

You looked good.

We used to do autocross on a track that stretched about one mile long. We used wireless timers for the finish and had nine work stations with three workers to watch for cones down.

I was a blast driving on the track with the cones to mark the course.

We once had something like 13 to 17 cones in one long slalom line, odd shaped Chicago Boxes, double triangles, slaloms that had variable numbers of width of cones like 1 then 2 side by side then 3,2,1 or even one cone to pivot around. It usually favored the high powered car but smoothness was always a good thing.

Once in my MINI I did manage third gear and nearly 60 mph before running out of course. Once I drove so fast that I caught up to the bumper of the car sent out ahead of me.

The bad part was the track was lined in some areas by metal guard rails and concrete barriers. Parts of the track were broken up and we had to patch them with quickcrete now and then. In 2006 the track closed and has never reopened after existing since 1960s.

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#25 MC

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Posted 18 April 2010 - 12:15 PM

you know i actually struggled yesterday to be honest my times were off where i usually am.... when i walked the course i was like i am gonna be flying but when i ran it in car ... not so much .. the course it was like a 1/8th long tight slalom then sweeper (yay) to the main course you saw in the vid.. slalom down that U turn up Slalom then U turn down again.. so i was just doing left to right movements the entire time and the car felt heavy when tossing it like that, i think i used the brake too much and upshifted to 3rd when i didnt need to.. i think those 2 things took some momentum out of my run... even though it was a long course i still didnt get to open it up like i imagined hit maybe 65-70 mph maybe .. when i heard about the event i thought it would be more like a road course made out of the runway kind alike top gear or something... instead it was long slalom runs up and down and up and down.. cars like S2000's did alot better at it

so while any seat time is good and helps me as a driver.. im way too hard on myself when it comes to driving so i was kind of down after the event


oh and here are my dunlops for street driving they will hold out a little longer but you can see they will probably cord after the next event.. so thats 5.5K miles on them



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#26 MC

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Posted 18 April 2010 - 12:46 PM

few pics

paddock
Posted Image


oil temp got about 225 and i was trying to let it cool so i didnt get that heak soak RPM drop /rattle after a hot restart but i only cooled down to 194 and still did it


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#27 AutoXGTR

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Posted 18 April 2010 - 01:45 PM

Thanks for the pictures and videos

The course is likely designed to slow down drivers to about 60 mph using turns, lane changes and slaloms. You're not going to get enough room to open it up so you have to study where the best straights are and bide your time in the slow portions. A balanced and agile car like the Miata or S2000 doesn't have to slow much but it may not have as much power at hand. The GTR has great brakes but you really don't want to use them much except on corner entry to get to the right speed or just to touch brake to balance the weight on your wheels.

Your tire shows wear patterns that can be helpful-

see this article from fig 8.6 onward
http://insideracingt...rebkexerpt3.htm

I try to be easy on my race tires to extend the life for a full season (12 events and championship).
Your driving style has a lot to do with wear. Hard on brakes and too fast on slow turns will stress your tires and generate heat.

My race tires Kumho V710 look pretty good after one year. I will be keeping them for now.

My street tires are a bit worn out on the front tire inner edges but still ok after 8600 miles and many autocross funruns and test and tune events. No track or quartermile.

Here is a sample video of an autocross in my area form last year-
http://www.sccahawai...081609-jon3.wmv
Check out the white Miata (he had 2nd overall on raw time for the day). He's codriving a shared car that isn't his and was beat out by a Datsun 240Z by 0.6 sec.

Basically it's always good to be smooth- on everything from steering to brake and throttle control. Overdoing anything is counter productive, you waste time, energy and resources.

Edited by AutoXGTR, 18 April 2010 - 01:57 PM.

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2009-2014 Season Pax Overall 12th tied 2010/ 13th tied 2011/ 10th 2012/ 10th tied 2013/10th 2014


#28 See23

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Posted 22 April 2010 - 11:04 AM

Our season in western Canada just started and fortunatly we have had warm days for the events.
I'm running Toyo Proxes R888 with 20" Enkei wheels. 315 rear and 285 front. It gives an extra 4+ inches of rubber width overall on the road. 100 wear rating.

1 st event-
8th raw, 20 pax - 8th was mid pack of modified, race tire competitors. 75 drivers overall

2nd event-
3rd raw, 8th pax - top two were in autocross prepped miata on Hoosiers
-My 3rd run was my best time. After one cone on each of the first 2 runs I decided to make sure I had a clean run so I ran smooth and accurate. I pushed on the 4th and 5th runs and ended up slower.
Don't push to hard- lesson learned.

I am considering some mods to help overcome the pax issue
I believe ASP pax is out of line.

This vid is from last weekend, my car.
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=L8QE4dyeODg

This is a great forum!
I wanna go fast!

#29 AutoXGTR

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Posted 25 April 2010 - 11:00 AM

Our season in western Canada just started and fortunatly we have had warm days for the events.
I'm running Toyo Proxes R888 with 20" Enkei wheels. 315 rear and 285 front. It gives an extra 4+ inches of rubber width overall on the road. 100 wear rating.

1 st event-
8th raw, 20 pax - 8th was mid pack of modified, race tire competitors. 75 drivers overall

2nd event-
3rd raw, 8th pax - top two were in autocross prepped miata on Hoosiers
-My 3rd run was my best time. After one cone on each of the first 2 runs I decided to make sure I had a clean run so I ran smooth and accurate. I pushed on the 4th and 5th runs and ended up slower.
Don't push to hard- lesson learned.

I am considering some mods to help overcome the pax issue
I believe ASP pax is out of line.

This vid is from last weekend, my car.
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=L8QE4dyeODg

This is a great forum!


I tired to open your video but it did not load.

Great job on autocrossing your GTR. How many seasons experience do you have and what cars before the GTR?

Are you at SCCA events? You mentioned ASP.

So for you two options- the GTR doesn't qualify for any Stock classes in SCCA. ASP is where a stock GTR falls and you can upgrade lots of things and stay in class to try to improve your results and keep up with your handicap/PAX.

I'd say if you can finish top 3 on raw time and top 5 on PAX in a group of under 100 then you did great.

Toyo R888 is a good track tire but might not be the most sticky for a short autocross event. Hoosier A6 or Kumho V710 would be much better but neither comes in 20" sizes. I would expect a 1 second drop in time with soft R compounds for a 40 sec course for you.

Suspension upgrades would be top on the list- One idea is to change out only the rear swaybar with a White line 20mm and set to softest setting. I think the 16mm bar is a good choice but I do not see that it is available yet- check with the vendors. You don't want to make the back too stiff, just a little to reduce understeer- more like tone it down, I think it would be difficult to eliminate it completely using only a rear bar. Otherwise there are many front and rear bar upgrades but at more expense. Cobb bars are good and stiff but out of stock for now, stillen bars less stiff but has some fitment problems, swift bars are the least stiff but still about $1000 for the set.

Aggressive alignment is helpful. Lowering will allow for more front negative camber

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2009-2014 Season Pax Overall 12th tied 2010/ 13th tied 2011/ 10th 2012/ 10th tied 2013/10th 2014


#30 See23

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Posted 26 April 2010 - 10:18 AM

Search see23100 on You tube. I have a bunch of videos.

Had another event yesterday with second fastest raw time. Total results aren't posted yet.

Our local club uses SCCA rules plus they have a "tire pax" . Ever heard of it?
I think its a local invention to keep the low budget guys involved.

I'm planning on going to Pac Wood in Washington in August for the SCCA event. It will be my first biggy.

This is my third year. I did a year and a half in a 2004 C4 Vette.
I'm in Kelowna BC Canada. We have 11 events with the Corvette club and every Thurs night June till Oct with the British car club.
At least 3 of the other drivers have competed in the Tire Rack finals.

The R888 have given me 2.5 to 3 sec on a 60 sec run. Its hard to know for sure because my driving has come a long way fast.

Thanks for the info. I will look into suspension upgrades.
I am warrenty conscious, for now.
I wanna go fast!

#31 See23

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Posted 26 April 2010 - 03:14 PM

Results are in.
3rd of 45 drivers. Paxed 8th.
I wanna go fast!

#32 AutoXGTR

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Posted 26 April 2010 - 10:28 PM

Results are in.
3rd of 45 drivers. Paxed 8th.


You did well.

See how you do at the other events coming up.

The videos were good. Still some understeer in tight corners. look at the cone positions relative to your wheels- a little closer would be possible. I know, easy to say that.

At my last event-
Posted Image
Posted Image
Swift springs and stock wheels and tires
Stock shocks are barely able to keep up, scraping is common with lowered suspension.

4472829118_3e56d7a83c_m.jpg4419874927_166d46a46b_m.jpg

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#35 Street Modified Class Solo SCCA Hawaii Region 2020-21
2009-2021 Season Points and Runoff Champion(ASP 2009-12/SSP 2013/Street Modified 2014-19/2nd Points SM 2020, 2nd Runoff SM 2016-17)
2009-2014 Season Pax Overall 12th tied 2010/ 13th tied 2011/ 10th 2012/ 10th tied 2013/10th 2014


#33 See23

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Posted 27 April 2010 - 12:38 AM

That's low! Looks great!
Your car would be pretty messed up after a run in one of the lots we use here. Its built like a drive in theater. Besides scraping, some times its hard to keep the wheels on the ground. Nobody likes it but its all that club has right now.

This is my old Vette in that lot. Without the music you would hear the front end hit the ground.

Edited by See23, 27 April 2010 - 12:40 AM.

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#34 See23

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 09:13 AM

I mentioned the "tire" pax our club uses to help guys who "can only afford to run street tires".
Has anyone ever heard of it being used anywhere else?
It's a mod to the pax factor that gives back about 2 seconds/min if your on street tires.
It's a hotly debated issue right now on the club forum (I started the debate )
We have a full class which includes every driver and an Outlaw class that are the top 10 to 15 drivers from the previous season. Both are currently using the old "tire" pax.
It serves a great purpose in the larger,general class but I don't think it has a place in the more serious Outlaw class. Most of those guys compete in other SCCA events.
Plus' without it, I would have paxed 4th instead of 8th in the last event. (It's a litle selfish on my part. I hate getting beaten by a stock Civic on street tires)
I say get with the rest of the world and drop the "tire" pax in the Outlaw class.
I know its a strange local issue but some outside input would be good.
If nothing else, I thought you might find it interesting.

Here's the forum link
http://www.okanaganr...sp?TOPIC_ID=367

Edited by See23, 28 April 2010 - 09:15 AM.

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#35 DeatschWerks

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 10:05 AM

It's great to see you autoX your GTR's. We don't have too many high-end cars coming to play at the local autoXs in Oklahoma, but we have had a few. The one stock GTR that came to a few last year (2009) did pretty well considering it still had the paper dealer tag hanging on the back. I've had the opportunity to ride and instruct in a few GTRs, but have yet to get my hands on the wheel. If any of you are in the OKC area with your cars, you should come to one of our events. We are very fortunate in OKC to have access to our county sheriff's training facility that has a 1.1 mile, multi-configuration track with an incorporated skid-pad. I've been pretty close to 100mph in my lowly CRX, and I know some our high HP cars have seen triple digits along with our average completion times are in the 1:45-2:00 range.

Keep it up guys! It's great to see these cars participating in this sport. :irock:

Edited by DeatschWerks, 29 April 2010 - 10:06 AM.

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#36 See23

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 05:34 PM

Update on my "tire " pax issue

I lost the battle, it will remain in the club for this season but...
They have agreed to post the real SCCA pax results as well, no recognition, no trophies just results.
Now we will know where we stand in real world numbers.

It changes my last results from 8th in "tire" pax to 4th in "real" pax as we now call it.
That's the results I will post on this forum.
I wanna go fast!

#37 See23

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Posted 04 May 2010 - 11:32 AM

Here's video from last weekend.
I had 2 DNF runs and no clean. The course was stupidly tight in one, miata loving, obstacle.

http://www.youtube.c...u/1/MQ-oAANDoMs
I wanna go fast!

#38 See23

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Posted 21 May 2010 - 10:05 PM

Just intalled Stillen sway bars, front and rear. I set them them both to the stiffest setting but was hoping to get some input from whoever knows whats best.
Also changed the alignment, as per AutoXGTRs above post. Should be intersting this weekend in Vancouver.

Finishing regularily in the top three raw times but still getting nailed by the pax. We'll see how the changes work out.

Is this thread dead? Anyone else racing?
I wanna go fast!

#39 AutoXGTR

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Posted 22 May 2010 - 10:32 PM

Just intalled Stillen sway bars, front and rear. I set them them both to the stiffest setting but was hoping to get some input from whoever knows whats best.
Also changed the alignment, as per AutoXGTRs above post. Should be intersting this weekend in Vancouver.

Finishing regularily in the top three raw times but still getting nailed by the pax. We'll see how the changes work out.

Is this thread dead? Anyone else racing?


No, there are some 4 or 5 active autocross GTR drivers but not all will post.

For your stillen bars
3-Way Adjustable Front Bar 20-38% Stiffer
5-Way Adjustable Rear Bar 67-108% Stiffer

Try starting with softest in front and middle setting in the rear then check for understeer. If still understeer then try stiffer setting in back. Stiffer in front will increase understeer.
If oversteer then change rear to softest setting.

If you keep stiffest setting for both bars, check for understeer and if you get it then move front bar to softest setting. If you get oversteer then move rear bar to middle setting and check again.

Let us know how it goes. To do better on PAX you have to go faster. Try a line that gets closer to the cones but don't topple them, just scare them. :cheers:

Edited by AutoXGTR, 22 May 2010 - 11:16 PM.

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#35 Street Modified Class Solo SCCA Hawaii Region 2020-21
2009-2021 Season Points and Runoff Champion(ASP 2009-12/SSP 2013/Street Modified 2014-19/2nd Points SM 2020, 2nd Runoff SM 2016-17)
2009-2014 Season Pax Overall 12th tied 2010/ 13th tied 2011/ 10th 2012/ 10th tied 2013/10th 2014


#40 See23

See23

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Posted 24 May 2010 - 12:04 PM

Thanks! I will set the front softer for the next event.

I read this after yesterdays race and didn't have a chance to change it so it was set at stiffest front and rear. The conditions were cold and sometimes wet so it was hard to judge, but understeer was an issue.
Overall I did well.
At the last event in Vancouver I was 8th raw and paxed 20th.
Yesterday I was 2nd raw (by .5 sec) and paxed 5th.

I pissed off a lot of cones but didn't knock over any all day.

I have the Cobb Access Port on its way. Need more power!!!

A side note: I jumped in my friends 2005 M3 for the first time and did a run 1 sec slower then his best. He paxed 4th for the day.
Man that thing is squirly compared to the GTR but really fun!
He tried the GTR for the first time and had a fit of joyous swearing. His time was midle of my 8 runs for the day. Great driver!

Thank you very much for your help. This forum is the greatest!
I wanna go fast!


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