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NISSAN: DO YOU WANT TO SOLVE THE PROBLEM?


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#1

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Posted 11 October 2008 - 02:25 AM

TO NISSAN: If you really want to solve the problem at a minimum cost to you (only 1500 of us), and look good in doing so, please read page 21, post #404 and #405 of the 'do not launch your GT-R or turn off your VDC...' thread. Essentially it says:

As an owner, what would I like to see from Nissan?
1. Acknowledge the existance of LC and its intended use.
2. Don't ban LC from the customer, instead give guidelines for it's use without denying claims if the tranny gives out.
3. If the tranny is truely so weak that it can't handle an occasional LC, fix the problem and pass on that fix at no cost to existing customers. The tranny should have been built strong enough to handle an occasional LC or the option should have never been place on the car and allowed to be used by journalist for publication. I consider this misrepresentation on the true performance of the car if I, the consumer, am not allowed to use LC without affecting my warranty and am unable therefore to obtain similar performance numbers as the publicatons. Granted I could never do the Nurburgring in 7.29, but if I Suzuki was behind the wheel of my car and conditions were ideal, he better come close to that time.
4. Define abuse. The term is very subjective.
5. Don't force me pay $20,000 for failed clutches or buy a whole new tranny if it can be repaired for less.
6. Fix the Wheel Hop Issue
7. Don't use the black box to violate privacy law and to arbitrarily negate our warranty.

Edited by robharr61, 11 October 2008 - 02:29 AM.


#2 MC

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Posted 11 October 2008 - 02:33 AM

#1 was addressed partially in the comments NNA provided NAGTROC yesterday

#2 and #4 are interrelated i am in the process of getting these answered for everyone more indepth hopefully next week. i did ask about a recommended or "maximum" # of L/C's but was not provided a set number to relay to the forum only comments pertaining to "misuse or excessive misuse"


#5 i believe since the clutch is "integrated" with the transmission it is a warranted part under normal use (again still trying to define that fine line of normal use and misuse)

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#3

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Posted 11 October 2008 - 02:49 AM

#1 was addressed partially in the comments NNA provided NAGTROC yesterday

#2 and #4 are interrelated i am in the process of getting these answered for everyone more indepth hopefully next week. i did ask about a recommended or "maximum" # of L/C's but was not provided a set number to relay to the forum only comments pertaining to "misuse or excessive misuse"


#5 i believe since the clutch is "integrated" with the transmission it is a warranted part under normal use (again still trying to define that fine line of normal use and misuse)


To paraphrase it all in a slightly different way:

You know what I'd like to see from Nissan, as a reasonable solution to this problem?

1. Recall all the cars and put in a very strong transmission (without the present design flaws) to handle the stress of LC.

2. Fix the wheel hop issue.

3. Then address LC in a FORMAL WRITTEN SUPPLEMENT TO THE WARRANTY, specifying reasonable parameters for its use under warranty (perhaps like 150-200 per year maximum, no 2 launches in succession and not to exceed x number per day and x number per week). Spell out exactly how LC should be used and how it should not be used. Define exactly what parameters technicians will use to determine abuse and denial of warranty.

4. Find a way to make parts more available in the U.S., so we don't have to wait months for major repairs

5. Please stop invading people's privacy rights by accessing the black box to arbitrarily void our warranty.

6. If these things can be accomplished, resale value of the 2009 GT-R would not be adversely affected, as it is now.

Edited by robharr61, 11 October 2008 - 03:14 AM.


#4 kungura

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Posted 11 October 2008 - 06:02 AM

I'm glad you wrote this:

but i have to say something...

even with a re-inforced tranny, and an addition of guidlines for use of the LC - people are STILL going to abuse LC... and if you're asking the 'black box' to be removed..keep dreaming, as this monitoring system is quickly becoming the norm in all new and upcoming cars.
ALL semi's and 18 wheelers have them, but it's a round piece of paper that's placed behind the speedometer, and when they get pulled over, they take it out, and it records 24 hrs of driver speed. so it's being merged with the car industry now.

sp back to the 'stronger' miracle tranny. I'm sure as soon as the V-spec comes out (if that's still happening with the recent suspension of all production/orders), things will change.

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#5

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Posted 11 October 2008 - 08:10 AM

Rob brings up valid points. I am not sure how far anyone will get with NNA in terms of replacing all the tranny with upgraded gears. It seems 1st, 3rd and 5th(or those sets of gears related to it) have been an issue. Please correct me if I am wrong. I am not knowledgeable in this area. Just read it where the 2nd, 4th worked but not the 1st, 3rd, etc. I didn't know if one set of gears were smaller than the others.

I have read and someone mention Bugatti and DSG. Well they spent a ton of money to upgrade it. I am sure their transmission would be about the cost of a new GT-R.

I don't care if this thing ran a 7:29 or 7:35 or 7:58 - I am interested in this car but not in its current form. I understand every car manufacturer has to put a limitation on their warranties or they would have to cover all acts of stupidity. "Sir I dropped the clutch into 2nd at 100 mph - was my motor supposed to blow?".

BMW with the LC restricted it to 2500 rpms due to our laws because they allowed for the feature to be present in US spec cars. You don't hear of too many people claiming BMW of denying claims from abuse from LC in the US.

If the VDC off allows for LC and it's intention was only for getting out of MUD/SNOW then why not limit the MPH(very simple ECU programming) to 30 MPH? If that was the "REAL" intention of the LC/VDC feature then limit the RPM's to 2500 and limit the MPH. That would then make more sense for the reason of allowing the use of LC/VDC off - otherwise Nissan put it there to get their track data to market and not allow owners to replicate the same performance numbers.

The problem now is that with fast proliferation of information via the internet the cars are being looked over twice before buying. Will Nissan give us the data on the blackbox for resale? If not then how do we trust that we are not buying a car with a voided clutch/transmission warranty from the getgo?

The unfortunate side to all of this is that it created a "BUYER BEWARE" market for these cars and in turn will hurt the resale value of the car. If they want it to remain high for resale NNA will have to allow for all dealerships to give the black box data or LC data for a resale. This is the only way I would consider buying a used GT-R.

Even if they improve on the tranny with the V-SPEC - do you really think they will recall all cars and say hey we have stronger gears please come on for a free update?

I hope they get it fixed for everyone that owns one currently and for all future buyers new or preowned.

Edited by mrmomoman, 11 October 2008 - 08:15 AM.


#6 Optherion

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Posted 11 October 2008 - 08:31 AM

I would just like an honest answer from nissan on this one question. Just ONE question.

In relation to the trans strength and clutches, how many launches can I expect before failure?

If its 20 or 30, then ill probably only be doin 1 launch a year.

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Posted 11 October 2008 - 08:39 AM

Would have been pretty clear if it had been labeled "Stuck" instead of "Off" since it defines Nissan's intended use.

I agree with reprogramming and dropping the LC rpm limit to 3,000-3,500 rpm. Anyone who's done runs on the dragstrip knows that dumping the clutch at 4,500 rpms repeatedly will toast the average street clutch in a hurry. It's not a mystery why the 1-3-5 clutch and 1st gear is getting cooked if someone is doing repeated launches at 4,500 rpm.

#8 NissanGTR

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Posted 11 October 2008 - 08:44 AM

#1 was addressed partially in the comments NNA provided NAGTROC yesterday

Can you give me a link to this, I can't find a thread on a response from Nissan.
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#9 avanti5010

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Posted 11 October 2008 - 09:08 AM

You guys are probably going to dump on me, but I have a couple of things to say:

1. First of all, Nissan makes you sign a release indicating your having read and understood their policy on VDC. To sign the release and bellyache after something happens due to your negligence is unfair to Nissan. This just like all the lunkheads who took out mortgages they couldn't afford and are now crying for help from the government. If you sign an agreement, honor it!

2. More importantly, making this a public issue through the use of the internet is feeding fodder to the GT-R haters out there, bolstering their superiority attitudes and providing the press with exactly what they love: negative news and sensationalism.
Internet news sites are loaded with negative stories about Nissan. This really bodes poorly for us other GT-R owners who do not feel the need to drive the car in a juvenile way. If you want to drag race, sell your GT-R and build a dragster.

#10 Singer

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Posted 11 October 2008 - 09:18 AM

First of all, Nissan makes you sign a release indicating your having read and understood their policy on VDC.

No, Nissan does not make you sign it. There are some people (like me) that did not sign it.

Edited by Singer, 12 October 2008 - 06:31 PM.


#11 MindlessOath

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Posted 11 October 2008 - 09:24 AM

why dont you make annother post about defected transmission... lol

#12 NissanGTR

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Posted 11 October 2008 - 09:38 AM

No, Nissan does make you sign it. There are some people (like me) that did not sign it.

All purchasers are supposed to sign it, just because you did not does not mean that is not Nissan's intent.

Sounds like your dealer just forgot or did not know about it.
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#13 MindlessOath

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Posted 11 October 2008 - 10:19 AM

dealers really f-ed up on everything (not all, but a bunch of them did).

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Posted 11 October 2008 - 10:19 AM

1. Recall all the cars and put in a very strong transmission (without the present design flaws) to handle the stress of LC.


3. Then address LC in a FORMAL WRITTEN SUPPLEMENT TO THE WARRANTY, specifying reasonable parameters for its use under warranty (perhaps like 150-200 per year maximum, no 2 launches in succession and not to exceed x number per day and x number per week). Spell out exactly how LC should be used and how it should not be used. Define exactly what parameters technicians will use to determine abuse and denial of warranty.



Do you really think it is reasonable to expect any tranny to withstand 150 - 200 clutch dumps at 4500 rpm per year?

#15 Singer

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Posted 11 October 2008 - 11:56 AM

All purchasers are supposed to sign it, just because you did not does not mean that is not Nissan's intent.

Sounds like your dealer just forgot or did not know about it.

... and this is you missing the point. It doesn't matter if you signed it. Rules are rules.

#16 Singer

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Posted 11 October 2008 - 11:58 AM

Do you really think it is reasonable to expect any tranny to withstand 150 - 200 clutch dumps at 4500 rpm per year?

He probably does feel that way. He is a little out of touch with reality though, so I think we should excuse him.

Now, on with the show, robharr61! Everyone is getting a good kick out of this :burnout:

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Posted 11 October 2008 - 02:07 PM

He probably does feel that way. He is a little out of touch with reality though, so I think we should excuse him.

Now, on with the show, robharr61! Everyone is getting a good kick out of this :burnout:


Singer, I don't know how many launches - I just threw that number out as a suggestion. You tell me and tell why you're so sure of your answer.

To provide a bit more information about me:

1. The car I bought was launched 4 times on a test drive. My salesman set the buttons and I did the launches. I had asked him for the launches, because I was NOT IMPRESSED with the non-LC standing-start acceleration - and I was not going to buy the car unless he demonstarted the "crushing acceleration" I read about in the magazines.

2. I did buy that car, but only after the launches. Neither my salesman nor I thought we had done anything harmful to the car. Since there was NO MENTION HOW TO USE LC IN THE MANUALS, why should you all presume that either my salesman or I had adequate information to know how to use LC. We may not be as sophisticated as some of you all are, but why should you presume that everyone who buys the car has special knowledge or experience. You all are guessing on the parameters of using LC, from your own experiences, but none of you know for sure. Some of you call me stupid, but I used to run a 442 Olds in the 60's and a Grand National in the 80's - thousands of 'launches', many on the drag strip with slicks, and I NEVER BROKE A TRANSMISSION.

2. I did do research before buying the car. I read the magazines and watched the videos, all of them demonstrating LC. None of them warned of the dangers; NONE OF THEM TOLD ME NOT TO USE LC. Nissan did not disclose LC was just a testing gimmick for journalists to be able to report their fantastic performance figures. Rather I listened to John Weiner in the Jay Leno video, and he offered LC as a feature on the car: He said, "PERFECT LAUNCHES EVERY TIME YOU DO IT".

3. In reality - as I learned only after reading septskyline's October 4th post - the transmission isn't strong enough to take many launches, and it may have glaring design flaws. Nissan probably never meant LC for use by the consumer, and now is just trying to cover its ass to avoid to warranty claims. If they never meant it for me to use, it should have not been advertised so vigorously, and it should not have been a feature in the car. So in my thread, "NISSAN: DO YOU WANT TO SOLVE THE PROBLEM?", I outlined some positive things Nissan could do. I got help on those suggestions from other forum members.

3. Whether some of you approve or not, I did buy the car for its launch control. If that seems like a narrow parameter to some of you, well so be it. I am not a road racer. I am interested in 0-60 acceleration and 1/4 mile runs, that's all, and the magazines were all generous with that kind of information for me. There are others on this forum who feel as I do.

4. Without LC, one cannot duplicate the 3.5 sec claim from Nissan. If any of you think you can without LC, come on over and prove it to me, driving my bone-stock GT-R on 91 octane, not some super-tuned version with extra sticky tires and better fuel - that Nissan may have used for its testing. I hear that Nissan recently told my salesman that the 3.5 second 0-60 time claim was without LC! Do any of you seriously believe that?

5. So for me, the acceleration claims were paramount to my decision to buy the car. Without LC, I cannot duplicate them. Take away LC or make it a painful 20k when I break the transmission, and the car isn't for me.

6. I was lured in by deceptive advertising and perhaps not having the sophistication that all you say I needed. But don't berate me for that - that's the way it is. It's Nissan's job to provide adequate information for a stock feature like LC, available for use on every 2009 GT-R. Tell me how to use it, tell me how not to use it, and tell me in sufficient detail.

7. I was not given the GT-R disclosure to sign. Even had I signed it, it did not refer to LC. Make it plain English for 'stupid people' - "USE LAUNCH CONTROL AT YOUR OWN RISK. WHEN YOU USE LC, YOU HAVE TO TURN YOUR VDC OFF AND THAT MAY VOID YOUR WARRANTY, IF YOU BREAK SOMETHING".

Edited by robharr61, 11 October 2008 - 02:09 PM.


#18 avanti5010

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Posted 11 October 2008 - 02:15 PM

How much simpler could it be than: "DO NOT DRIVE CAR WITH VDC OFF" ??????
It says it in the owners manual and the form that was supposed to be signed at delivery.
I would say if the dealer did not have you sign the form, HE would be liable for the repair.

#19 rcalcaide

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Posted 11 October 2008 - 02:18 PM

Here is the answer we want from Nissan:

GT-R owner: "Nissan I just toasted my transmission during numerous LC's. Can you fix it for me? IT IS under warranty. Yes, I drive it agressively and abusively. That is what the car is meant for."

Nissan: "SURE! no problem. We will replace the transmission under warranty!"


Is that realistic to ask of Nissan or any other car manufacturer?

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Posted 11 October 2008 - 02:21 PM

How much simpler could it be than: "DO NOT DRIVE CAR WITH VDC OFF" ??????
It says it in the owners manual and the form that was supposed to be signed at delivery.
I would say if the dealer did not have you sign the form, HE would be liable for the repair.


I don't have a repair problem - yet. I'm just afraid to use LC again.



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