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Will we ever see an undetectable tune for the GT-R?


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#1 nico

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Posted 09 February 2010 - 11:03 PM

I know this is equivalent to asking will I ever win the lotto but for those who are holding back from a tune because of detecting capabilities, will we ever see some type of undetectable tune for the GT-R? leaving ZERO traces. Please no "don't mod if you are scared" comments. I intend this thread to be a question/discussion to the tuners and customers and not as a debate. Thanks! :cheers: :irock:
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#2 MindlessOath

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Posted 09 February 2010 - 11:06 PM

apparently haltech doesnt write to the ecu so its undetected in that sense. it has not been proven to thawart the black box yet. first impressions said it bypassed it, but now everyone says maybe not.

otherwise that blackbox is the stickler.

#3 JoeGr

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Posted 09 February 2010 - 11:45 PM

Any bench flash done to the ECU will not be detected by the black box. The black box will see that the boost levels are higher, what what ever else it monitors. As far as I'm am aware there is no way to modify the ECU without the black box showing traces of it.

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#4 nico

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Posted 10 February 2010 - 12:52 AM

thanks for the replies!

looks like the black box is the GT-R's number one enemy :)
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#5 AutoXGTR

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Posted 10 February 2010 - 12:56 AM

Replace the black box (after you find it)

or tune the ECU but drive at stock boost levels since it is the max/higher than stock boost levels that give away the tune.

Don't laugh, can be done.

With a good tune you can get more power at normal boost levels and a heck of a lot of power and higher than stock boost but it's all usable in the stock boost range.
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#6 nico

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Posted 10 February 2010 - 01:02 AM

Replace the black box (after you find it)

or tune the ECU but drive at stock boost levels since it is the max/higher than stock boost levels that give away the tune.

Don't laugh, can be done.

With a good tune you can get more power at normal boost levels and a heck of a lot of power and higher than stock boost but it's all usable in the stock boost range.

wonder how much a new black box would be?

however the tuned at stock boost levels seems like a great idea. never really thought about it. but then again, is it worth getting a cobb ap just to drive at stock boost levels? wonder how much additional power you can get out of an access port while maintaining stock boost levels....
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#7 Goodwood

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Posted 10 February 2010 - 04:15 AM

wonder how much a new black box would be?

however the tuned at stock boost levels seems like a great idea. never really thought about it. but then again, is it worth getting a cobb ap just to drive at stock boost levels? wonder how much additional power you can get out of an access port while maintaining stock boost levels....

Ok, A, no one knows where the black box ie, "Flicker" data recorder is, and B, you couldn't buy a new black box if your life depended on it. Have you noticed how no one can get their hands on the all important GTR card for the Consult III? Same deal. Besides, I'd really like to know, how the hell are you supposed to extract more power from a turbocharged car without raising boost levels? It's simply not possible to any appreciable degree without other mods, such as reduced internal rotating mass, such as lightweight flywheel, pistons, con rods, (really expensive), or an easily detectable free flowing exhaust, which could jeopardize your warranty. Not saying it would, but it could. Maybe change the A/F ratio or the timing? Good luck with that. Better to leave the car alone and have peace of mind knowing your warranty is intact.

#8 JoeGr

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Posted 10 February 2010 - 10:12 AM

Ok, A, no one knows where the black box ie, "Flicker" data recorder is, and B, you couldn't buy a new black box if your life depended on it. Have you noticed how no one can get their hands on the all important GTR card for the Consult III? Same deal. Besides, I'd really like to know, how the hell are you supposed to extract more power from a turbocharged car without raising boost levels? It's simply not possible to any appreciable degree without other mods, such as reduced internal rotating mass, such as lightweight flywheel, pistons, con rods, (really expensive), or an easily detectable free flowing exhaust, which could jeopardize your warranty. Not saying it would, but it could. Maybe change the A/F ratio or the timing? Good luck with that. Better to leave the car alone and have peace of mind knowing your warranty is intact.


With the way that the AccessPORT v2.0 maps work you can get more power out of stock boost levels. Thistle changed the way that the logic in the tables work and made it RPM dependent rather then air flow. By doing this you can have boost come one earlier and hold higher at high RPM. So what you can do is tune the car to have the stock peak boost at lower RPM and hold that boost for longer. The stock boost curve drops off very sharply, and by holding boost you'll make a ton more power.

The power gains will not be as high as running higher boost, but you'll keep the factory peak boost.

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#9 Russell1

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Posted 10 February 2010 - 10:20 AM

GTR isn't the first to have this issue. The Duramax trucks have had the same problem trying to sneak around the black box due to removing the emissions equipment 100% voiding the warranty. However, the conclusion they came to was just to buy a junkyard ECU to use for all their tunes, which will probably be a little more challenging on a GTR.


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#10 Goodwood

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Posted 10 February 2010 - 02:20 PM

With the way that the AccessPORT v2.0 maps work you can get more power out of stock boost levels. Thistle changed the way that the logic in the tables work and made it RPM dependent rather then air flow. By doing this you can have boost come one earlier and hold higher at high RPM. So what you can do is tune the car to have the stock peak boost at lower RPM and hold that boost for longer. The stock boost curve drops off very sharply, and by holding boost you'll make a ton more power.

The power gains will not be as high as running higher boost, but you'll keep the factory peak boost.

Joe

First of all, Joe I want you to know I think your products are top notch, so this is in no way a slam on Cobb.
But, aren't you essentially saying the same thing I said in my previous post?
Having the boost come on earlier and hold higher at high RPM is an increase in boost over stock, (at a specific RPM level), is it not? Now, whether or not that's detectable by Flicker is anyone's guess.

Edited by Goodwood, 10 February 2010 - 02:20 PM.


#11 DocNrock

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Posted 10 February 2010 - 03:00 PM

no one knows where the black box ie, "Flicker" data recorder is


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#12 freezeg35st/srt8

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Posted 10 February 2010 - 07:40 PM

First of all, Joe I want you to know I think your products are top notch, so this is in no way a slam on Cobb.
But, aren't you essentially saying the same thing I said in my previous post?
Having the boost come on earlier and hold higher at high RPM is an increase in boost over stock, (at a specific RPM level), is it not? Now, whether or not that's detectable by Flicker is anyone's guess.



So does the box record psi vs rpm or just max psi?
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#13 Goodwood

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Posted 11 February 2010 - 04:41 AM

So does the box record psi vs rpm or just max psi?

Given the fact that no one knows where it's located within the car, I'd say it's safe to assume that no one knows what parameters it records either.

#14 35R

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Posted 11 February 2010 - 05:16 AM

> Will we ever see an undetectable tune for the GT-R?

Short answer..

NEVER

If it ever comes down to it, Nissan only need to compare your calibration to the stocker calibration, and they will know.

now, they will most likely never bother, unless they have good cause.

but if they have reason to look, you're [email protected]

#15 freezeg35st/srt8

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Posted 11 February 2010 - 09:35 AM

Given the fact that no one knows where it's located within the car, I'd say it's safe to assume that no one knows what parameters it records either.



I recall a post recently that showed the box in the dash behind the nav.
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#16 JoeCaMotto

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Posted 11 February 2010 - 11:09 AM

I recall a post recently that showed the box in the dash behind the nav.

I think Jeremy Blackwell posted that he found the BBox.
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#17 xwing

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Posted 11 February 2010 - 11:21 AM

There can be Reflash Eraser when: there is competition to Cobb et al; or someone smart enough to understand WHAT and HOW the black box logs things so Reflashes can be hidden undetectably.
Clearly there is market for it.
Considering all people buying GTR's and modding them, ALL real people driving a GTR EXCEPT (possibly) the Super Rich or Odd Thinkers, would want to hide reflashes from the Dealer when they go in for service so as not to VOID their warranty!
Unfortunately, for now there is:
1) Cobb
2) Haltech (well sort of, with issues...)

Thus, Cobb is selling all they can make to almost every GTR on Earth already, and has no fire under their butts to TRULY "Uninstall" their Accessport and hide its tracks fully.
They just "erase codes and return to Stock Map", but half-assedly leave the Reflash evidence to be found whenever the Dealer wants to dig.

Cobb has never to my knowledge ever said "We are Smart Enough and Our Device is Capable Enough to Erase Reflashes Properly", and their silence is deafening.
The answer is NOT to "poo-poo" or belittle those who want the AP reflash FULLY removed/uninstalled/pristine.
The answer is to say:
"We can and will do it",
"We Can but Refuse to Do it" or
"We Can't Do It, Our Box/Technology Is Not Capable Enough".

EDIT: TO UNDERPRESSURE BELOW--
Please read Nico's thread start message, we don't need or want simple-life-duh nannies in THIS thread.:
"Please no "don't mod if you are scared" comments. I intend this thread to be a question/discussion to the tuners and customers and not as a debate. Thanks"

Edited by xwing, 11 February 2010 - 11:51 AM.


#18 underpressure

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Posted 11 February 2010 - 11:46 AM

Let me post this similar scenario:

I'd like to know how to have sex with your wife/girlfriend without you knowing about it. Think there ever be way to do this without it being detectable?

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#19 thistle

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Posted 11 February 2010 - 12:19 PM

It is probably near impossible to reverse engineer that module I expect. And I don't mean the type of impossible that was talked about the engine control unit when the GTR first came out, I mean really impossible. If I was Nissan I would have done it that way, they are not stupid, they've decided to protect against fraudulent warranty claims.

#20 Goodwood

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Posted 11 February 2010 - 02:32 PM

So, Thistle, do you know where this so called Flicker data recorder is located?


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