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Which one is better for road & track?


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#1 gillsgtr35

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 08:37 AM

I wanted to get some answers about the brakes available for the GTR. First of all I will be driving on and off the race track, it will not be a full race car. I'm trying to get an idea which would be best for unsprung weight and endurance. If you could choose the best braking system for the GTR and price did not matter, which one is better for overall braking? I know if you get the Carbon-Ceramic that I would need the brake cooling kit as well, and I would probably need it anyway at the track to keep temps down. Let me know Thanks

Edited by gillsgtr35, 14 August 2010 - 08:38 AM.

Love all racing but mostly road racing, and time attack.
98 Black WS6 6 speed 360rwhp 370rwtq koni shocks, eibach springs...sold
05 350z 6speed manual, TEIN coilovers, greddy evo 2 catback, JWT filter charger, Volk GTM 19inch Wheels, Blitz body kit. sold.
Currently driving rental car in Japan and we are talking about a 3 cylinder KEI car, probably has about 65 hp. =(

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#2 MindlessOath

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 02:49 PM

This depends on a lot of factors, each one has different properties and each one uses different compound of pads for different drivers, styles, tracks, etc.

Iirc carbon ceramics last much much longer but cost a lot more, are very delicate and create massive amounts of heat. I have heard different things about stopping properties some brands are even piss poor in stopping.

Start out with the stillen cooling kit and whtever rotors you want to try (alcon, pfc, AP, etc).

If you need to upgrade calipers it will cost a lot more to get something better than the stock ones... But they would offer different properties again depending on many factors.

If you were to do endurance CC may be a better choice.

#3 gillsgtr35

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 04:41 PM

Thankyou for the info, I will probably go with the stillen kit and a lightweight rotor for now and then switch to the Carbon-Ceramic later when I get back to the states.
Love all racing but mostly road racing, and time attack.
98 Black WS6 6 speed 360rwhp 370rwtq koni shocks, eibach springs...sold
05 350z 6speed manual, TEIN coilovers, greddy evo 2 catback, JWT filter charger, Volk GTM 19inch Wheels, Blitz body kit. sold.
Currently driving rental car in Japan and we are talking about a 3 cylinder KEI car, probably has about 65 hp. =(

GTR R35 1 more year

#4 seanm

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 05:58 PM

The CCM's have a few advantages over normal iron rotors. If you are going for price no object, lightest rotors you can get, then the CCM's are the way to go.The CCM's are 38 lbs lighter, and that is rotating and unsprung weight. The car will accelerate, stop, and turn better. They are not an inexpensive brake setup, but when you demand the best, you get CCM brakes.

The AP curved vane J-Hooks or Slotted rotors are very popular, and they last most people 2-3 times longer than the factory Brembo rotors.

You can give me a call on Monday, or email me if you want to talk some more about brake options.

Edited by [email protected], 14 August 2010 - 05:59 PM.

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#5 seanm

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 06:03 PM

Iirc carbon ceramics last much much longer but cost a lot more, are very delicate and create massive amounts of heat. I have heard different things about stopping properties some brands are even piss poor in stopping.


The CCM's are not a pure carbon brake. They are a carbon ceramic 3D matrix. They are not delicate like some OEM factory carbon brakes. The AP CCM's are the same type of brakes on the Bugatti Veyron.

http://viewer.zmags....2d#/0a41a32d/12

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#6 Bernie (OOParts)

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 07:09 PM

I think the biggest deterrent to the CCMs is obviously the price. But, look at it this way... the CCM's supposedly will last the lifetime of the car (assuming it is kept in the proper operating temps). Assuming a price of $3400 to replace J- hook AP rotors, and $15k for CCMs, it will take just 5 rotor changes to make the CCMs worthwhile. So, if you race frequently enough that you'd have to replace the iron rotors 5 times within the lifetime of the car, then going with the CCMs initially might make good financial sense! The question is, will the CCM's really last forever? I haven't seen a single review on the CCM's to date, and they certainly haven't been out long enough to assess longevity/durability...
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#7 gillsgtr35

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 07:14 PM

Well you just made my mind up for me. I look at the pro's of CCM brakes, they are lighter (unsprung weight), and they last longer. They may be more money but if you do the math you will save in the long run, Also they will help your car accelerate, brake, and turn faster. Thank you for the great info
Love all racing but mostly road racing, and time attack.
98 Black WS6 6 speed 360rwhp 370rwtq koni shocks, eibach springs...sold
05 350z 6speed manual, TEIN coilovers, greddy evo 2 catback, JWT filter charger, Volk GTM 19inch Wheels, Blitz body kit. sold.
Currently driving rental car in Japan and we are talking about a 3 cylinder KEI car, probably has about 65 hp. =(

GTR R35 1 more year

#8 RedGTS

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 07:25 PM

A friend of mine just had to replace the CC rotors on his Scuderia after around 1,000 track miles (I believe they were showing cracks). Color me highly skeptical on the notion that CC rotors will last "the life of the car" if the car is tracked frequently. If they truly did last that well, wouldn't more race teams use them? The big budget teams certainly can afford to buy all the iron rotors they need, but even if you take cost out of the equation it would be nice not to have to change rotors so often. And I'm not knocking the Stillen product at all as I have no experience with it and know little about it; I suspect it would be great for a street/track car. I'm just saying I wouldn't bet on any rotors lasting tens of thousands of miles if most of them were track miles.

#9 Miata_mx5

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 07:42 PM

A friend of mine just had to replace the CC rotors on his Scuderia after around 1,000 track miles (I believe they were showing cracks). Color me highly skeptical on the notion that CC rotors will last "the life of the car" if the car is tracked frequently. If they truly did last that well, wouldn't more race teams use them? The big budget teams certainly can afford to buy all the iron rotors they need, but even if you take cost out of the equation it would be nice not to have to change rotors so often. And I'm not knocking the Stillen product at all as I have no experience with it and know little about it; I suspect it would be great for a street/track car. I'm just saying I wouldn't bet on any rotors lasting tens of thousands of miles if most of them were track miles.


Class rules play a big part in what race teams use. CCM is expensive, but at the same time pad choice is very limiting with CCM. You are stuck with either Endless or Pagid. For GT cars for the most part, steel brakes do the job well, don't break the bank compared to CCM brakes, and offer greater pad choices. Which is why steel brakes are still the preferred choice in racing for everything except the top 20% of racecars.

Edited by Miata_mx5, 14 August 2010 - 07:45 PM.



#10 MindlessOath

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 07:53 PM

A friend of mine just had to replace the CC rotors on his Scuderia after around 1,000 track miles (I believe they were showing cracks). Color me highly skeptical on the notion that CC rotors will last "the life of the car" if the car is tracked frequently. If they truly did last that well, wouldn't more race teams use them? The big budget teams certainly can afford to buy all the iron rotors they need, but even if you take cost out of the equation it would be nice not to have to change rotors so often. And I'm not knocking the Stillen product at all as I have no experience with it and know little about it; I suspect it would be great for a street/track car. I'm just saying I wouldn't bet on any rotors lasting tens of thousands of miles if most of them were track miles.

not all cc rotors are created the same. But your right. They are suppose to last somewhat longer than regular aftermarket rotors and for street use they may last forever. Those rotors on the lambos were apparently horrible for racing.

Stillen did comment on the pads and rotors for the targa race but don't recall the data.

#11 NickTO

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 08:07 PM

:)

Edited by NickTO, 18 September 2013 - 10:51 PM.

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#12 STI2EVO2GTR

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Posted 14 August 2010 - 08:40 PM

CCM kit for me if I was doing the brakes.

#13 seanm

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Posted 15 August 2010 - 09:36 PM

Also, not all racing series use CC rotors.

Take a look at the brake systems that are behind a lot of racing championships worldwide..

Just sayin... definitely worth looking around, some of the best setups don't need PR, it's at the track that they prove themselves.


Not all race series are allowed to use CCM rotors. If the price was not so high, and they were allowed, you would see them on a lot more cars.

However, they are generally banned from most series.

How many F1 cars have iron brakes?

Do you know what brakes are on 8 of the 10 quickest cars around the Top Gear test track?

What about which brakes are on the fastest car in the world, the Bugatti Veyron?

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#14 jmunjr

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Posted 15 August 2010 - 10:34 PM

Also keep in mind the AP Racing iron rotors weigh more than OEM...
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#15 AP Racing - Chris_B

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Posted 15 August 2010 - 10:44 PM

A friend of mine just had to replace the CC rotors on his Scuderia after around 1,000 track miles (I believe they were showing cracks). Color me highly skeptical on the notion that CC rotors will last "the life of the car" if the car is tracked frequently. If they truly did last that well, wouldn't more race teams use them? The big budget teams certainly can afford to buy all the iron rotors they need, but even if you take cost out of the equation it would be nice not to have to change rotors so often. And I'm not knocking the Stillen product at all as I have no experience with it and know little about it; I suspect it would be great for a street/track car. I'm just saying I wouldn't bet on any rotors lasting tens of thousands of miles if most of them were track miles.

There is a lot of confusion out there when people hear "carbon brakes". In racing, carbon-carbon (C-C) is used wherever the rules allow it. For high-performance road vehicles, carbon-ceramic matrix (CCM) is the rotor of choice. Carbon-carbon brake systems consume both the rotor and the pads, where CCM brakes are designed to consume only the pad.

There are a few different ways to make CCM rotors. The ones on the Scuderia you mention are made from three pieces, a chopper-gun-like core and two face plies -- and only those face plies are siliconized into carbon-ceramic. The core remains C-C. So far, this style of construction is more delicate and less user-friendly than a full 3D CCM, like those on the STILLEN GT-R upgrade. The 3D version takes longer to make and requires more energy, so they end up being more expensive.

The enemy of CCM brakes is not wear -- they are very, very hard (approaching diamond hard!). The real issue is oxidation. As long as rotor temps are kept below 750C / 1400F, they could possibly last the life of the car or even longer. If run for extended periods of time over that temperature, oxidation will start to convert the carbon molecules to carbon dioxide, which just floats away. So it pays to keep track of rotor temps, which is why we apply paint temps at STILLEN before we assemble them to the hats. Cooling kits are a great idea for track use. Keep in mind that the pads will also run hotter as the rotor has less mass to absorb braking energy than iron discs, so the CCM discs will heat up everything around them a bit more.

Now here is another interesting point: If you were to oxidize those Scuderia CCM rotors (or the ones on any Ferrari, Lamborghini, Porsche, Aston Martin, Audi, ZR-1 Corvette, etc.) you get to throw them away after they lose a prescribed amount of mass. With the Stillen GT-R system, surface oxidation can be ground off to where the rotor looks like new again. This can only be done with a full 3D CCM rotor, not the 3-piece laminated type like on the other cars mentioned above as you would grind right through the thin face plies!

If we chose to go with the 3-ply route instead of 3D, we could probably lower the price a couple grand -- and then have to deal with the occasional dissatisfied customer who would have to replace a front pair when they were excessively oxidized or if damaged by putting wheels back on the car. In the service manual for the ZR-1, the service tech is required to place a foam ring around the rotor before removing a wheel. If not, the dealership gets to pay for a new rotor if he chips it. While I certainly don't recommend pounding a wheel against the STILLEN/AP Racing CCM rotors, we are much less concerned about careful, routine service creating such a problem.

Even though carbon-carbon has been around since the 70's (I started working with C-C in 1990), the more recent availability of CCM to the general public will continue to cause confusion until we get further down the road. They are not the same as iron in any capacity other than they are roughly the same shape. We can't expect that after 100 years of iron drums and discs that CCM technology will be completely understood by the masses for quite some time. Then add the fact that they are still changing as companies continue to look for ways to reduce the manufacturing costs.

Hope this helps,

Chris

#16 RedGTS

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Posted 16 August 2010 - 08:19 AM

Interesting stuff Chris, thanks for the explanation.

#17 NickTO

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Posted 16 August 2010 - 08:42 AM

:)

Edited by NickTO, 18 September 2013 - 10:51 PM.

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#18 seanm

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Posted 16 August 2010 - 09:25 AM

Also keep in mind the AP Racing iron rotors weigh more than OEM...


It is not a bad thing to have a heavier rotor when we are talking about iron. Lightweight iron rotors on a car like a GT-R, do not have a long life. Search "AMS rotors" if you have any questions. However CCM's are a different material, that allows for much higher temperatures than iron.

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#19 Davin

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Posted 16 August 2010 - 06:19 PM

There is a lot of confusion out there when people hear "carbon brakes".


Awesome post! Thanks for sharing that info.

I'm curious:
1 Are the F1 like C/C setups designed to compromise rotor life in exchange for higher temperature tolerance and greater potential friction?
2 Is there anything in the GT-R's AP CCM setup to alert the driver when the pad is getting low? Or is that something you just have to watch? (Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm assuming you wouldn't be runnig a metal 'indicator')
3 Are there any guides as to when you'd think that extra cooling would be required for AP's CCM setup? or do you just base it off of monitoring the base setup on street(?)/track?

#20 AP Racing - Chris_B

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Posted 16 August 2010 - 06:51 PM

I'm curious:
1 Are the F1 like C/C setups designed to compromise rotor life in exchange for higher temperature tolerance and greater potential friction?
2 Is there anything in the GT-R's AP CCM setup to alert the driver when the pad is getting low? Or is that something you just have to watch? (Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm assuming you wouldn't be runnig a metal 'indicator')
3 Are there any guides as to when you'd think that extra cooling would be required for AP's CCM setup? or do you just base it off of monitoring the base setup on street(?)/track?

1. Material development in F1 brake systems is not something that can be discussed on a board. Besides, there are only a small number of people in the world who are directly involved to the point of knowing what is current as specifications can change from race to race. While I have done so in the past, I'm not currently one of them.

2. Just like with racing brakes, pad wear indicators should not be relied upon. As always, check pad life before and after tracking the car. If only running on the street, check every now and then -- when the tires are rotated at a minimum.

3. Again, it is all about temperature. I sometimes get a little grief for my position on this, but I firmly believe anyone tracking any car needs to monitor rotor temps. There are simple and relatively inexpensive ways to do this using temp paints, etc., so no one has to go out and buy a $40k Pi Research data acquisition system (although those are VERY nice!). Infrared or touch probe pyrometers are a bit overkill for the amateur, and most people don't use them correctly anyway! Since the CCM's are temp painted at STILLEN, there is no reason a street driver can't take a peek after a 'spirited' run just to be sure. If an owner has no desire to do this himself, his shop should have the basic skill set to help keep an eye on peak rotor temperatures. If not, it's time to find another shop!

Chris

Edited by AP Racing - Chris_B, 16 August 2010 - 06:52 PM.



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