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Just got back Blackstone results for my OE fill trans fluid. The car was driven for half of its 8,600 miles on 93 and the remainder on e85 (full bolt-ons). I would also mention that I have never seen trans temps over 220 (maybe less) and have never launched the car. The results suggest that anyone (aside from stock, potentially) still on their OE trans fluid after 7k miles, or so, may want to start considering changing their fluid. I have since transitioned to Willall fluid and would expect that will provide significantly more longevity when combined with the fact that the trans is now "broken-in."
 

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CMD
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Before I got lab work done on my Willall I bought a 20L jug of Pentosin... The results of the Willall were pretty damn good considering the miles and track torture I put on it... Well my transmission failed due to typical defects. I got the new one which has OEM in it, so now I am wondering if I should go with Willall again or try out the Pentosin, and I wonder how soon I should swap it out...
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
If it is a new transmission with OE fill, I would say 7k-ish based on my results. Keep in mind that I had no track miles on the car.
 

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Honestly, for daily driver duties, every fluid seems to be fine. The pentosin is the most economical, but there are always warranty worries. It SHOULD stand up to high temp track duty, but will thin with high temp.

If streeted only, 7-10k looks just fine for even the first fill. To remove the abrasive garbage the first drain should help remove it and promote some longevity, and after that if not tracked, 18k should be achievable.

For track, all bets are off. If you get good and hot, the Willall and Dodson have to fare best, due to chemistry issues. With a cooler, though, I can't see why the OEM and pentosin coudn't be okay, but for an expensive gear box, my brain sleeps a little better with GEAR oil in there, instead of super special ATF or silicone (OEM and pentosin).

Nice results, anyway. Looks like a good maintainance program.

Shawn
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Honestly, for daily driver duties, every fluid seems to be fine.
Thanks for your input Shawn. I always look forward to you chiming in on these threads and to those that you post. To your point above, I agree but all things equal I would have preferred to change the fluid 1k miles earlier (regardless of what I changed it with). Honestly, Willall is double the price of Pen but when it comes to the most expensive component of the car (trans), I don't see a reason to skimp over $400 (though I do understand the point about the car not seeing track duty).
 

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Thanks for your input Shawn. I always look forward to you chiming in on these threads and to those that you post. To your point above, I agree but all things equal I would have preferred to change the fluid 1k miles earlier (regardless of what I changed it with). Honestly, Willall is double the price of Pen but when it comes to the most expensive component of the car (trans), I don't see a reason to skimp over $400 (though I do understand the point about the car not seeing track duty).
Thanks. This car has taught me a lot. My previous Hondas didn't shed metal from ANY component like the Nissan's, and this one particularly. Just trying to share the knowledge, and it IS a work in progress.

But, you keep getting results like this, and long term worries are little. For a first change, this is quite good. Your results are comparable to mine, and mine has been flushed many times, although it is tracked.

The fluid technology for this beast is ADVANCED, and all of them are doing well, including yours.

Shawn
 

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Honestly, for daily driver duties, every fluid seems to be fine. The pentosin is the most economical, but there are always warranty worries. It SHOULD stand up to high temp track duty, but will thin with high temp.
While I agree with this in principle, Pentosin offers more than just a few extra dollars in your pocket. The car really does shift a million times better on Pentosin. If it was just me, I would say it's placebo. But, several guys locally have gone from GR6 to FFL-4 (one with <10k miles, the other with over 25k miles), and the shift characteristic is a night and day difference. Like me, most of the guys that used to drive in R mode daily don't anymore.

So yes, if we're looking at just Blackstone numbers and what's "fine," all of these advanced fluids under discussion are "fine." But given the following:

1) Pentosin is a lifetime fill for M3/R8.
2) Shifting characteristics improve drastically with Pentosin.
3) Blackstone was spotless over 10k with increased power from a drain & fill.
4) It's cheaper, which means more frequent changes won't put a BIGGER hole in your pocket. (No one will argue more frequent changes is worse.)

Sure, if you have a GT-R service dept that is just looking to void your warranty for every little thing, then by all means stick with GR6. But, let's not forget the Warranty Act guys, where "No warrantor of a consumer product may condition his written or implied warranty of such product on the consumers using, in connection with such product, any article or service (other than article or service provided without charge under the terms of the warranty) which is identified by brand, trade or corporate name...." (15 U.S.C. 2302©.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Great insight guys! I don't have a clear view on what the best fluid is but is seems conclusive that OEM fill should NOT be used for over 10k mile, as opposed to the represented 18k.
 

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The long change intervals, particularly for those that just street drive their cars is the biggest benifit of Willall. Even with pretty frequent track use, we typical suggesting changing out the Willall fluid once every year. For daily driver types, 20K+ miles between should not be an issue.
 

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As you may have seen Sharif in my link above, Willall kicked butt and there were a lot of hard, hot track miles on it. With my new tranny that will see some track time, anywhere from 6-20 track days a year(lots of variables), I wonder now how long I should keep the OEM in there and once replacing it, will using the Pentosin I have be ok, or should I just do Willall again. A few have said the Willall had zero to do with my transmission failure (seal/solenoid) but I am not 100% convinced.

The lack of endurance on the OEM is my beef. I loved the Willall because it lasted so long, but honestly the smoothness of the transmission seemed to have deteriorated over time even after the 3 year POS. Low speed driving was horrible the past six months+. Was it the Willall? I dunno, but it wasn't this bad without it... I am suspecting it was mostly a software issue.. The new one is amazing though.
 

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1) Pentosin is a lifetime fill for M3/R8.
2) Shifting characteristics improve drastically with Pentosin.
3) Blackstone was spotless over 10k with increased power from a drain & fill.
4) It's cheaper, which means more frequent changes won't put a BIGGER hole in your pocket. (No one will argue more frequent changes is worse.)
I like the concept, but there are three comments:

1.Shift quality isn't always indicative of how things are going. Plenty of "it shifted great before it died" stories on fluids that weren't just the right specification.
2. Blackstone can't tell anything about the seals from analysis
3. BMW and Audi trans do not get as properly hot as our trannies do on track.

While I THINK the pentosin is likely to be better than the OEM, there are chemical properties of the OEM that make me wonder, and I won't have anybody risk warranty or seals just because of speculation. WillAll and Dodson have specially designed fluids for the GR-6. Pentosin is an "off the shelf" application that is a special fluid for euro gearboxes. I believe it's fine, but the other options are customized just for our application. See what I'm getting at?

Shawn
 

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As you may have seen Sharif in my link above, Willall kicked butt and there were a lot of hard, hot track miles on it. With my new tranny that will see some track time, anywhere from 6-20 track days a year(lots of variables), I wonder now how long I should keep the OEM in there and once replacing it, will using the Pentosin I have be ok, or should I just do Willall again. A few have said the Willall had zero to do with my transmission failure (seal/solenoid) but I am not 100% convinced.

The lack of endurance on the OEM is my beef. I loved the Willall because it lasted so long, but honestly the smoothness of the transmission seemed to have deteriorated over time even after the 3 year POS. Low speed driving was horrible the past six months+. Was it the Willall? I dunno, but it wasn't this bad without it... I am suspecting it was mostly a software issue.. The new one is amazing though.
The seals are the weak spot here, and no analysis may be able to help us.

My suggestion? 1/2 WillAll and 1/2 pentosin. Have any OEM left? Put it in first. The "hybrid" theory works here, and i have shown it with my own gearbox. Photo evidence to back it up too.

I await my seal failure as well. It's coming. Viton can only last so long, and even beefier harder compounds have to fail eventually. It's just life.

Shawn
 

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Great insight guys! I don't have a clear view on what the best fluid is but is seems conclusive that OEM fill should NOT be used for over 10k mile, as opposed to the represented 18k.
This may be true for just the first fill, though. No one has done a follow up from the first. Icarus's track analysis is the closest we've seen to that.

Shawn
 

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I like the concept, but there are three comments:

1.Shift quality isn't always indicative of how things are going. Plenty of "it shifted great before it died" stories on fluids that weren't just the right specification.
2. Blackstone can't tell anything about the seals from analysis
3. BMW and Audi trans do not get as properly hot as our trannies do on track.

While I THINK the pentosin is likely to be better than the OEM, there are chemical properties of the OEM that make me wonder, and I won't have anybody risk warranty or seals just because of speculation. WillAll and Dodson have specially designed fluids for the GR-6. Pentosin is an "off the shelf" application that is a special fluid for euro gearboxes. I believe it's fine, but the other options are customized just for our application. See what I'm getting at?

Shawn
Multiple transmissions have failed with Willall fluid in them, including Sharif's. He posted pictures of his broken transmission's internals with the Willall fluid on all the parts. It is in no way a miracle fluid that magically prevents failures of the GR6. There is no fluid that will prevent all failures of some of the parts in the transmission, as some failures are not lubrication related. To say that Pentosin fluid is and "off the shelf" euro product and not as appropriate as Willall or Dodson makes no sense. Pentosin was designed for Borg-Warner wet clutches and Borg-Warner shift mechanisms as used in both the GT-R and most other PDK transmissions around the world. Willall might be used in a few hundred gearboxes, while Pentosin is used in a few hundred thousand gearboxes.

Pentosin is a manufacturer that has been commissioned by many brands to supply them DCT fluids (McLaren, Porsche, BMW, VW, Audi Bentley, Karmann and the parts and gearbox makers Borg Warner, Getrag, ZF, to name a few). Willall has been commissioned by none.

here is some good info on DCT lubricants: http://www.dctfacts.com/information/special-lubricants.aspx

and if you use your car on track, get an add-on cooler, or change the fluids often. Pentosin FFL-4 makes that a more affordable option as a bonus. The worst thing you can do for any lubricant is to let it overheat and run it that way for extended periods.

From the head of R&D at Pentosin:

"if you can not get the FFL-4 I would recommend to ask for the FFL-2 at a VW dealer. We have achieved 135000 km in an Audi A3 on the FFL-2 so far. The car is still running nicely. VW changes the oil after 60000 km but only to make money with the service. I am sure that all VW cars could use it up to 150000 km.

Please keep in mind that an oil change is not a 100% replacement. The percentage varies with every type of gear box. The remaining oil could spoil the new oil to some extent.

Whether an oil is a life time oil or not depends on the individual severity of the gear box and the type of driving. The FFL-4 is a life time oil for a BMW M3, 335i and Z4 and these cars can be driven brutally. I enjoyed it for an hour in a M3. When BMW tells me that they can not destroy my oil they also have their life time requirement of 160000 km in their mind. May be it is 100000 in a Nissan, or 200000. I don`t know. I have no project with Nissan and therefore can hardly estimate the severity of the gear box.

We vex the FFL-4 for 192 hours at 170°C by bringing in air. It is still okay after this treatment. But this is an aerobic treatment whereas in the gear box the FFL-4 sees an unaerobic atmosphere most of the time. If you take an hour of this lab test and estimate that it is equivalent with an hour of the car running at 200 km/h you get a milage of 38400 km. But obviously one hour at 170°C under air stands for more than 1 hour at 200 km/h. According to BMW it is 5 hours at 200 km/h.
"

Thus Pentosin FFL-4 fluid is a very high temperature rated fluid and has been tested against oxidation at 170C (338F) continuously for 200 hours for BMW or so which is a very, very high temperature. How could anyone say this is not suitable for track use in a GT-R?
 

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Multiple transmissions have failed with Willall fluid in them, including Sharif's. He posted pictures of his broken transmission's internals with the Willall fluid on all the parts. It is in no way a miracle fluid that magically prevents failures of the GR6. There is no fluid that will prevent all failures of some of the parts in the transmission, as some failures are not lubrication related. To say that Pentosin fluid is and "off the shelf" euro product and not as appropriate as Willall or Dodson makes no sense. Pentosin was designed for Borg-Warner wet clutches and Borg-Warner shift mechanisms as used in both the GT-R and most other PDK transmissions around the world. Willall might be used in a few hundred gearboxes, while Pentosin is used in a few hundred thousand gearboxes.
True, except the GR-6 is different in several different ways from those boxes, and it fails A LOT more often than any of those gearboxes. I'm not sure if it's the horsepower, or heat, or what, but you have to admit it is very different than all those other boxes.

But, Pentosin FFL-4 is an "off the shelf" product, and has NOT been specified for the GR-6. While I, just like you, believe that it's very likely just fine and probably much more hardy than the OEM, why didn't Nissan and Borg-Warner pull this "off the shelf"? They pulled EVERY OTHER lubricant on the GT-R directly off the line from another manufacturer. If Borg-Warner thinks the FFL's would be fine, then why didn't they use it? Instead, they went to a full custom lubricant, very very different than pentosin. So, yes, I am saying that all the other fluids were custom designed just for the GR-6. All of them except the Pentosin. So, it does make sense to me, because the GR-6 is so different than all those other transmissions, the fluid for them MIGHT not be perfect for our gearboxes.

Pentosin is a manufacturer that has been commissioned by many brands to supply them DCT fluids (McLaren, Porsche, BMW, VW, Audi Bentley, Karmann and the parts and gearbox makers Borg Warner, Getrag, ZF, to name a few). Willall has been commissioned by none.
Well, WillAll likely doesn't make the fluid, more likely than not it's made by Mainlube, which does supply industrial lubricants to multiple manufacturers. And, don't get me wrong, I'm no WillAll disciple - I'm not sure ANYBODY has the perfect lubricant when it comes to this gearbox. Arguments for Pentosin, Dodson, WillAll, and HKS can all be made, very logically.

and if you use your car on track, get an add-on cooler, or change the fluids often. Pentosin FFL-4 makes that a more affordable option as a bonus. The worst thing you can do for any lubricant is to let it overheat and run it that way for extended periods.
I'll agree with that....so what the heck is this:
Thus Pentosin FFL-4 fluid is a very high temperature rated fluid and has been tested against oxidation at 170C (338F) continuously for 200 hours for BMW or so which is a very, very high temperature. How could anyone say this is not suitable for track use in a GT-R?
Because it's too thin at high temp is why I say it. But, the Pentosin isn't a "magic fluid" that defies the laws of physics either. At 338, it's a LOT thinner then at nominal operating temperature. I wouldn't want something that thin between my gears and synchros at that temp.

To each his own on these. I think the Pentosin is likely better than the OEM for daily driving, but there are some significant chemistry choices that Nissan custom specified for their fluids, that I KNOW WillAll and Dodson accounted for. I don't know about the HKS, myself. But, the Pentosin was there before a GR-6 ever was imagined. While I think it's a fine fluid, I don't know if it accounts for those chemical differences Nissan was considering for when they designed their fluid. So, I see it's a very easy logical doubt to cast on the Pentosin. Time, analyses, and use will tell. The fact that it's a lifetime fluid for an M3 or anything else speaks that it's a high quality fluid, but it doesn't imply that it's just as good for this gearbox. Put an M3 gearbox in a GT-R, and then I get THAT, but they are SOOOOO different.

The initial analyses are very encouraging, but we'll see over time.

Shawn
 

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CMD
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I like the concept, but there are three comments:

1.Shift quality isn't always indicative of how things are going. Plenty of "it shifted great before it died" stories on fluids that weren't just the right specification.
2. Blackstone can't tell anything about the seals from analysis
3. BMW and Audi trans do not get as properly hot as our trannies do on track.

While I THINK the pentosin is likely to be better than the OEM, there are chemical properties of the OEM that make me wonder, and I won't have anybody risk warranty or seals just because of speculation. WillAll and Dodson have specially designed fluids for the GR-6. Pentosin is an "off the shelf" application that is a special fluid for euro gearboxes. I believe it's fine, but the other options are customized just for our application. See what I'm getting at?

Shawn
Yeah, but seals have failed even with the stock fluid and plenty of other fluids with the "stock add pack," so to me, a seal discussion with regards to fluid seems less pertinent. I'm not trying to argue with you here, but there are guys that have been running FFL4 for over 30k miles already in Asia with no issues. So if you're looking for data points, that is certainly one.

Moving along, given your main concern seems to be with the add pack in the stock GR6 fluid, why not mix in a bit of the GR6 with the FFL-4? Plus, my first fill that was so pristine at 10k miles was not a complete flush, I recall only putting in about 7L of FFL4 that time. Thinking outside the box here, could that bit of GR6 that remained have helped with the excellent Blackstone results?
 

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Yeah, but seals have failed even with the stock fluid and plenty of other fluids with the "stock add pack," so to me, a seal discussion with regards to fluid seems less pertinent. I'm not trying to argue with you here, but there are guys that have been running FFL4 for over 30k miles already in Asia with no issues. So if you're looking for data points, that is certainly one.
Agreed on all points. My data says it should be fine, but I'm a worrier about this. The seals concern me, but I'm not sure that has anything to do with fluid.

No argument intended. This is a good debate. We all win if we can find that pentosin is best. The only one that competes with it on price is the Dodson bought in the 20L container.

Moving along, given your main concern seems to be with the add pack in the stock GR6 fluid, why not mix in a bit of the GR6 with the FFL-4? Plus, my first fill that was so pristine at 10k miles was not a complete flush, I recall only putting in about 7L of FFL4 that time. Thinking outside the box here, could that bit of GR6 that remained have helped with the excellent Blackstone results?
Agree 9000%. The OEM, mixed in, should provide the unique ATF chemistry to all the fluids. I have had OEM chemistry in all of my cocktails, and still do. Very happy with the results.

My last fill, with a full drain, including valve body and filters, took 9 1/2 quarts. By inference, your change included about 30% OEM chemistry.

I don't know if that made the difference. I suspect the odd additive package from OEM and tackifier from Dodson and WillAll are more about the clutches and valve body than gears. The pentosin should be fine for the gears. But, one reason the OEM oxidizes so easily is it is a "beefed up" ATF that can withstand gear clash and still protect. ATF was designed for things that slip, not for things that mesh.

So, don't misinterpret me, I think the pentosin is very likely to be fine, but if you track and get hot, I STRONGLY suggest a good transmission cooler. The pentosin will be very thin at 280F, and has to lose some film strength as a result.

Shawn
 
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