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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I started a topic discussing various brake components and explained how a rotor, based on its design and construction can react and respond differently at the same braking conditions. I browsed this forum and noticed quite a few GT-R owners seem to have some kind of issues one way or the other with their brakes - from squeaky brake on street driving to broken calipers on track racing.

So can you share your experience and how you get the issues resolved.
 

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I started a topic discussing various brake components and explained how a rotor, based on its design and construction can react and respond differently at the same braking conditions. I browsed this forum and noticed quite a few GT-R owners seem to have some kind of issues one way or the other with their brakes - from squeaky brake on street driving to broken calipers on track racing.

So can you share your experience and how you get the issues resolved.
Too much heat, too much rotor cracking.

I bought CCM's and run the pads down to the backing plates, and installed Stillen fans. Other than brake judder because seating the new pads is difficult, and fast pad wear, I couldn't be happier.

Shawn
 

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I bought CCM's and run the pads down to the backing plates, and installed Stillen fans. Other than brake judder because seating the new pads is difficult, and fast pad wear, I couldn't be happier.

Shawn
If I read your comment correctly you are saying you invested big money on CCM rotors plus cooling fans, but other than Brake judder and Fast pad wear (down to steel backing plate), you couldn't be happier. Are most GT-R guys are truly so forgiving like you or if my understanding is incorrect.
 

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Too much heat from the car, or the stock brake (or aftermarket) set up is not capable enough to deal with the heat.

If I read your comment correctly you are saying you invested big money on CCM rotors plus cooling fans, but other than Brake judder and Fast pad wear (down to steel backing plate), you couldn't be happier. Are most GT-R guys are truly so forgiving like you or if my understanding is incorrect.
No, your understanding is exactly correct. GT-R concept is speed at any cost. A big, heavy car like this requires compromises. The stock system stops the car wonderfully, but has poor cooling, and as a result, wears pads quickly and eats rotors for breakfast. The ultimate solution is better ducting, but great rotors help SOME of the issues. The CCM solution I have is a high expense solution, but stops so well on track, and the rotors are so durable as to inspire forgiveness of any negatives. The fast pad wear is partly heat issues, and partly that the CCM's are so tough, that getting a good bedding layer is difficult. That's just physics, and little else. It also doesn't help me bed them in that I've "undertired" the car to save costs, so I get a lot of ABS, which makes bedding properly difficult.

The community here is generally a bunch of track junkies, so we understand most of these issues.

My Corvette buddies, whose rotors cost $35, have to change them about every five track days. Everything is a compromise, one way or another.

Shawn
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
No, your understanding is exactly correct. GT-R concept is speed at any cost. A big, heavy car like this requires compromises. The stock system stops the car wonderfully, but has poor cooling, and as a result, wears pads quickly and eats rotors for breakfast. The ultimate solution is better ducting, but great rotors help SOME of the issues. The CCM solution I have is a high expense solution, but stops so well on track, and the rotors are so durable as to inspire forgiveness of any negatives. The fast pad wear is partly heat issues, and partly that the CCM's are so tough, that getting a good bedding layer is difficult. That's just physics, and little else. It also doesn't help me bed them in that I've "undertired" the car to save costs, so I get a lot of ABS, which makes bedding properly difficult.

The community here is generally a bunch of track junkies, so we understand most of these issues.

My Corvette buddies, whose rotors cost $35, have to change them about every five track days. Everything is a compromise, one way or another.

Shawn
I really can't think any issue that is more intolerable than brake vibration and quick pad wear. In our years of business in brakes, I should say any customer has any of these issues will almost file a complaint immediately and never gave up until it's resolved.

Unlike a car brake has no brands, a highly priced package bearing a legendary brand doesn't necessary mean it can solve the heat issue.

RB has solution in handling all kind of super muscle cars including CTS-V that is heavier and faster than GT-R.

So if we can offer you a brake (rotor and pad) package with a braking power you need but w/o these two issues would you be even happier?.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
+1, Haven't seen a CTS-V faster than a GT-R even stock for stock..lol.
CTS-V has been out in the market since 04 and is in it's 2nd generation (09+) which we have two piece rotors cover them all. May be I should say it's significantly heavier than GT-R and combining with a "comparable" speed as GT-R the brake can be tougher than any stock race cars.

RB two piece rotors are also well accepted in EVO community which we serve since 2004 from 8/9 and up to 10 (08+), and I hardly hear from our customers that they need an auxiliary cooling device.

So we certainly welcome the opportunity to put RB two piece iron rotors to test; against other aftermarket rotors (iron or CCM) assuming the brake pads are properly matched up and verified.
 

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So if we can offer you a brake (rotor and pad) package with a braking power you need but w/o these two issues would you be even happier?.
Lower rate padwear you'll need to be able to illustrate that. The CCM's brake better, and you expect a little higher padwear with that.

Also, no way you can beat the durability of the CCM's. I have subjected them to the backing plates with no real rotor wear. The vibration is a result of my commitment to try different pads, and getting the new pads to deposit while successfully removing the old pad layer is just proving to be difficult.

So, you're a newcomer to the GT-R community. Prove the worth of your goods, and you'll get some play. But, saying you provide cooler rotors and pads with lower padwear is very different than showing it. When I had an EVO, your rotors were reviewed very well, but you had an unfair advantage. You provided a two piece system where there were only solid rotors before. To get lower padwear on an EVO, ducting was needed. The GT-R comes with two piece rotors stock, but is even worse heat challenged than the EVO. 500 pounds more car, and 200 more horsepower, and faster straigtaway speeds. I'm sure your products are top notch, but much better than the AP rotors, or performance friction ones? Prove it. Better than the CCM's? Doubt it. No way you can beat the weight or durability. Maybe seating the surface will be easier, but I'll take a little vibration for lifetime rotors that are lighter.

Show us some data, and I'm sure somebody will purchase your rotors. We'll be anxiously awaiting their opinion.

Shawn
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Lower rate padwear you'll need to be able to illustrate that. The CCM's brake better, and you expect a little higher padwear with that.
This is a compatibility art between the rotor and pad. It's normal that friction materials wear but shall be at an "acceptable" rate.​

Also, no way you can beat the durability of the CCM's. I have subjected them to the backing plates with no real rotor wear.
You like CCM rotor but the pad wear rate seems to be disappointing, just like someone like "full metallic" (sintered) pad but it can accelerate the rotor wear. So the rotor and pad must be considered together for an optimal brake package.​

The vibration is a result of my commitment to try different pads, and getting the new pads to deposit while successfully removing the old pad layer is just proving to be difficult.
According to CCM rotor supplier's claim their rotors are "ridiculously hard", so unless you are using "full metallic" pad I can imagine it's difficult to dent the rotor.​

So, you're a newcomer to the GT-R community. Prove the worth of your goods, and you'll get some play. But, saying you provide cooler rotors and pads with lower padwear is very different than showing it.
I overheard that GT-R has brake issues so I have been following on this forum and we like to take the challenge and work with GT-R community for a solution.​

When I had an EVO, your rotors were reviewed very well, but you had an unfair advantage. You provided a two piece system where there were only solid rotors before. To get lower padwear on an EVO, ducting was needed. The GT-R comes with two piece rotors stock,
Understand GT-R stock cooling vanes are not curved, so the cooling efficiency is the same as EVO rotors (1 or 2 pc) and if Nissan uses same standard rotor material and "drill" them, you can understand their performance can be worse if not any better than EVO rotors (EVO rotors are not drilled)​

but is even worse heat challenged than the EVO. 500 pounds more car, and 200 more horsepower, and faster straigtaway speeds.
At the same token rotors on EVO are much smaller and lighter: 320x32 (8/9), and 350x32 (10) vs. GT-R's 380x34 (=Porsche 997 GT2/GT3). Can mfgrs already factored in their brake design (rotor size) to the car/horsepower which is usually more than sufficient for most of their customers-street driving (97%?) and only very few that are heavily tracking have issues and need special attention.​

I'm sure your products are top notch, but much better than the AP rotors, or performance friction ones? Prove it.
They are respectful names in the "professional racing", however I believe RB has more experience in dealing with "amateur or weekend" racers with budget in mind, although it's yet to be proven in GT-R community.​

Better than the CCM's? Doubt it. No way you can beat the weight or durability. Maybe seating the surface will be easier, but I'll take a little vibration for lifetime rotors that are lighter.
CCM rotor is not a new technology and its overall value; initial, maintenance (incl. compatible brake pads) cost vs. performance gain and durability (very easy to chip) comparing to iron rotor is yet to be seen although I still believe iron rotor is the one to prevail over the time.​
As an alternative, we also make CGI (Compacted Graphite Iron) rotors dedicated for club racing, CGI has much better tensile strength and good heat characteristics than flake iron. So the rotor can be made with less material to further reduce the weight.​

Show us some data, and I'm sure somebody will purchase your rotors. We'll be anxiously awaiting their opinion.
Agree, the best way is to put the rotor and pad to test by someone you would vouch in GT-R community, someone that are competent to run the test, collecting data and provide impartial evaluation.​

Thank you
 

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Comprehensive and thorough response, I congratulate you. Admirable these days.

This is a compatibility art between the rotor and pad. It's normal that friction materials wear but shall be at an "acceptable" rate. You like CCM rotor but the pad wear rate seems to be disappointing, just like someone like "full metallic" (sintered) pad but it can accelerate the rotor wear. So the rotor and pad must be considered together for an optimal brake package.
Excellent point. And, you are fully correct. The original Pagid's that came with the CCM's were GREAT, just expensive. Carbotech and now Hawk's since have been very very very good, but wear quickly. Considering they are less than 1/2 price, that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make. I am strongly considering the sintered pads as a next several pad alternative, and I am certainly open to suggestions from you. I have tried Pagids, then Carbotech XP10's, Carbotech XP12's, and now Hawk DTC-70's. All have been good, but since the Pagid's, it's been very hard to get a full "deposit layer" on the CCM's, so there's some brake judder on track. Certainly tolerable (and maybe no worse than the less than perfect street tires I'm using may be causing in and of themselves). Do you have a pad you'd suggest?

According to CCM rotor supplier's claim their rotors are "ridiculously hard", so unless you are using "full metallic" pad I can imagine it's difficult to dent the rotor.
Even the backing pates and rivets from the Pagids and Carbotechs have failed to leave a score on the CCM's. They successfully "removed" the bedding layer of the pad, but then deposited backing plate on the rotor. The backing plates brake quite well, actually.

I overheard that GT-R has brake issues so I have been following on this forum and we like to take the challenge and work with GT-R community for a solution.
An admirable goal. i think this is a good idea, honestly.

Understand GT-R stock cooling vanes are not curved, so the cooling efficiency is the same as EVO rotors (1 or 2 pc) and if Nissan uses same standard rotor material and "drill" them, you can understand their performance can be worse if not any better than EVO rotors (EVO rotors are not drilled)
Something that nearly killed me at VIR, actually. When I still was driving my EVO, the stock EVO rotors, as you point out, have no capacity to outgas. Between Saturday and Sunday, I had to switch pads. Despite bedding the pads well (but not getting them to full hot temp, which is hard to do on the street), on lap THREE I had no brakes AT ALL. Thank God I was on VIR Grand East when this happened. Grand East has a turn, which is blocked off from "Full" course. Fortunately, I could go straight onto the full course. It was a thin layer of gas from a pad that had finally hit full temp, with no slots, dimples, or drills to escape. It took me a while to clean the EVO's seat. Thank goodness they were black.

At the same token rotors on EVO are much smaller and lighter: 320x32 (8/9), and 350x32 (10) vs. GT-R's 380x34 (=Porsche 997 GT2/GT3). Can mfgrs already factored in their brake design (rotor size) to the car/horsepower which is usually more than sufficient for most of their customers-street driving (97%?) and only very few that are heavily tracking have issues and need special attention.
Given. I resorted to AMS's cooling kit to improve padwear. I was using Brembo crossdrilled rotors, and then finally Performance Friction two piece. Both were much better than stock. Evolutionm.net members rated your rotors a little better than both of these rotors, however.

They are respectful names in the "professional racing", however I believe RB has more experience in dealing with "amateur or weekend" racers with budget in mind, although it's yet to be proven in GT-R community.
And, you make another excellent point. There are a few companies that do best with the "weekend warrior" rather than the full racer. Racecars have the luxury of "throwing away" high cost high performance parts at the end of a competition. Many of us weekenders have scrapped most of our lives to afford a great track car like this, and $500 rotors are not easy to dispose of happily. I have had excellent opinions by my old community of your products, so I welcome you.

CCM rotor is not a new technology and its overall value; initial, maintenance (incl. compatible brake pads) cost vs. performance gain and durability (very easy to chip) comparing to iron rotor is yet to be seen although I still believe iron rotor is the one to prevail over the time. As an alternative, we also make CGI (Compacted Graphite Iron) rotors dedicated for club racing, CGI has much better tensile strength and good heat characteristics than flake iron. So the rotor can be made with less material to further reduce the weight.
And, another good point. The initial outlay on the CCM's is so high, they're not for everybody. Myself, with a bad back and poor tolerance for switching out rotors on ANY regular basis (even every 16-24 months would be a problem for me), the CCM's may prove their worth over time (it'll take ten years, I'm afraid). Unfortunately, your GT-R rotors aren't yet in the CGI material. However, I am certainly impressed with the solution that only uses one rotor ring. A truly unique thought. More thoughtful than any other company to this point that I'm aware for the "track warrior".

Agree, the best way is to put the rotor and pad to test by someone you would vouch in GT-R community, someone that are competent to run the test, collecting data and provide impartial evaluation.
That's easy. Three possible nominations - 1. descartesfool 2. icarus 3.pi-man (mentioned alphabetically). pi-man assembles tables of pad and rotor thickness between track events, descartesfool and icarus are both hard track goers, and both use auxillary cooling to improve brake pad life, and all three have the patience and respect from this community to be complete and have the thoroughness to provide the feedback here. I'd suggest the first one of them that chimes in here we nominate as a potential to provide that data back to this community.

Shawn
 

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The major problem with the GT-R's brakes on track is lack of sufficient cooling. Pads run too hot, past their optimal range, and thus wear too quickly, and overheating leads to pad fade, and high pad costs. This causes excessive heat cycling of the rotor, leading to crazing and cracking (for the first gen OEM ones), and hot fluid leading to fluid fade, So any solution that reduces rotor temps would be welcome. I have not seen evidence from anyone for any rotor that one runs cooler than another, so it would be interesting to see if that is demonstrable. There is the theory of cooler rotors using different vane designs, and then there is the demonstration of the theory actually working on track. I can supply the GT-R, the track tires, the track time, and a data logger. If someone can supply a pair of IR temp sensors for logging the rotor temps, I can mount them and get some data, and compare my PFC rotor temps to any others.
 

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I really can't think any issue that is more intolerable than brake vibration and quick pad wear. In our years of business in brakes, I should say any customer has any of these issues will almost file a complaint immediately and never gave up until it's resolved.

Unlike a car brake has no brands, a highly priced package bearing a legendary brand doesn't necessary mean it can solve the heat issue.

RB has solution in handling all kind of super muscle cars including CTS-V that is heavier and faster than GT-R.

So if we can offer you a brake (rotor and pad) package with a braking power you need but w/o these two issues would you be even happier?.
yes.
 

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, So any solution that reduces rotor temps would be welcome. I have not seen evidence from anyone for any rotor that one runs cooler than another, so it would be interesting to see if that is demonstrable. There is the theory of cooler rotors using different vane designs, and then there is the demonstration of the theory actually working on track. I can supply the GT-R, the track tires, the track time, and a data logger. If someone can supply a pair of IR temp sensors for logging the rotor temps, I can mount them and get some data, and compare my PFC rotor temps to any others.
http://www.motec.com.au/sensors/temperature/

The Motec - Texis IR Temp sensors with a range of 150C to 1000C look like they are around $400-$500 each.

Weird - these ones are Texys....hmmm

http://www.texense.com/en/produits/racing-series_2/infkl-800-c-infrared-brake-disc-temperature-sensor-brake-disk_36.html

Up to 800C.

Would you get temps from the rotor edges like paint?
 

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I run AP and Endless pads (ME20's). I am very happy with the setup, car stops consistently in the 150+ range at Road Atlanta (my home track) and at VIR (my favorite, but farther away from home).

I get my car serviced at Forged and they pay particular attention to brakes, well - because they stop the car when I drive it.

I can go through a set of front pads in a weekend of CHIN (monster track time) in the summer heat. In cooler temps, a set of front pads can last 4-5 track days easy. The rear pads can last waayyy longer even in hot weather.

I think it depends upon the track conditions, tire being used and suspension setup. The stickier the setup, the faster you go - the more effort required to brake the car, etc.. Sticker tires really wear down pads.

I am not concerned with the amount of brake wear on my current setup, if it can be improved I am all-in but I will not sacrifice safety over price --- and what I have now has proven itself very worthy,... very worthy indeed. I'll pay extra for reliability & safety, no hesitation at all.

-Paul
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
I run AP and Endless pads (ME20's). I am very happy with the setup, car stops consistently in the 150+ range at Road Atlanta (my home track) and at VIR (my favorite, but farther away from home).

I get my car serviced at Forged and they pay particular attention to brakes, well - because they stop the car when I drive it.

I can go through a set of front pads in a weekend of CHIN (monster track time) in the summer heat. In cooler temps, a set of front pads can last 4-5 track days easy. The rear pads can last waayyy longer even in hot weather.

I think it depends upon the track conditions, tire being used and suspension setup. The stickier the setup, the faster you go - the more effort required to brake the car, etc.. Sticker tires really wear down pads.

I am not concerned with the amount of brake wear on my current setup, if it can be improved I am all-in but I will not sacrifice safety over price --- and what I have now has proven itself very worthy,... very worthy indeed. I'll pay extra for reliability & safety, no hesitation at all.

-Paul
The consensus I can gather here from your guys is that GT-R is so "fast" and "heavy" and that stock brake is simply not adequate under heavy tracking. Despite adding auxiliary cooling devices, and expensive upgrades like CCM rotors and special pads, fluids etc., still you have to compromise to some ill-effects and put up for a more frequent replacement of components.

However from our experience in dealing with similar super muscle cars likeCorvette Z06, CTS-V and CamaroSS, I have not heard similar type of heat issue as you have, nor these guys are as forgiving as GT-R owners here.

This leads me to think where those extra heat can come from?, and the next question is: Has anyone ever looked into the hub bearing and observed how hot it gets comparing to other stock car running at comparable speed.

Understand an inadequate wheel bearing can add more heat to the hub and in turn to rotor, especially when you make sharp turn at high speed which can put tremendous stress (thrust force) to the bearing, thus the heat you get (measured from rotor) can include the substantial amount of heat from the hub bearing.

An evidence of requiring a "compatible" heavier duty bearing is from the new CTS-V (09+, V2), it now uses a beefier wheel bearing than earlier (04-07, V1) models along with larger brakes. For that reason we offer retrofit brake upgrade to older models (V1) owner who don't need/want to upgrade the hub bearing but for more serious track racers they do both.

It would be interesting to see if the new 2012 GT-R is using the same wheel bearing as earlier models or not.

Hopefully we can work with GT-R community in solving the brake issues from the fundamental aspects.
 

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However from our experience in dealing with similar super muscle cars likeCorvette Z06, CTS-V and CamaroSS, I have not heard similar type of heat issue as you have, nor these guys are as forgiving as GT-R owners here.
It would be interesting to see if the new 2012 GT-R is using the same wheel bearing as earlier models or not.

Hopefully we can work with GT-R community in solving the brake issues from the fundamental aspects.
Z06 is fast, but around 3200 lbs. I don't see many CTS-V at track days, not sure if those guys really go that hard. They are heavy, but I really dont see guys driving them hard. Maybe what they think is hard, which is when a GT-R passes them on the GT-Rs cool down lap.

I work quiet a few trackdays a year, so I see a lot of cars, and talk to a lot of owners. Two years of World Challenge. One in GT in 2006, and one in TC in 2010. NASA WERC. NASA PT and TT. Lots of other open days in testing. This weekend I am crew chief on a team (outside STILLEN, DG-Spec Scion team) running in the 25 Hours of Thunderhill. - http://www.nasa25hour.com/

One of the things that the GT-R has, that those other cars do not, is an axle running though the center of the hub. This limits airflow to/through and around the brake. With other cars, its not difficult to get air at the center of the rotor to keep the rotors cool. On a GT-R its an issue. Front mounted caliper, and a axle running though the center. It can be done, but it requires some engineering to get air to them.

A GT-R has a two piece hat, so the aluminum helps in both directions at keeping the hub bearing cooler. I have not seen a lot of issues with the R35, but I did have issues with the earlier R34's and bearings. Those were mostly though due to high loading with a lot of negative camber.

Pad wear is due to heat and material. There is going to be some amount of compromise if you go far outside the box. Over the last few months, I have been involved with a lot of testing, trying to get pads to last longer in the particular setup I am dealing with for the 25 Hour. When the car ran sprint races, we had "no issues" with wear, but when we moved to an endurance format, that becomes an issue.

The GT-R's first biggest braking issue is the type of material that Nissan used for the OEM rotors. They were fine for the 95% of guys, but 5% of the owners hurt them. The fast guys hurt them in a weekend. The slower guys might take 4-5-6 weekends to destroy them. The GT-R is a fast car with high limits. It weighs a lot, its on a lot of sticky tire. Change the rotor over to a better material, with better vanes, and the rotors last a lot longer, but you still are wearing the pads, and getting everything fairly warm.

Some guys have luck with just diverting some air at the rotors/caliper. Not ideal, but its the right idea. Air is free, and its all around the car. The trick is getting it where you want it.
 
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