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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hello & Greeting:

This is Warren from RB and I hope this is the right place to discuss about brake technology in general for GTR like I was invited by Mike Kelly to Renntrack.com forum hosting a same brake discussion for Porsche.
I used the same thread title as MKelly started and here is his introduction note:

Team, I've invited Warren Lin, from http://www.racingbrake.com/ to come over and have an online discussion with our community about brake technology and where he thinks the current trend is, some truths, some myths dispelled, and what he has to offer the Porsche community. He's known here as Warren-RB!

Warren and I have spoken on the phone, and emailed back and forth for pretty much the whole of this week, and we've shared our thoughts concerning what is being sold currently in the market. Over the next week I hope to have this internet exchange of info growing to multiple pages...

Let's please keep this discussion CIVIL and stick with the facts only. Please, lets throw out what we think we know about a specific product. This discussion will lead to topics like material composition and moleuclar structures, as well as jargon regularly used in selling you a part, and what it truly means...

Mike

Here is my reception note:

Thanks to Mike's invitation and the warm welcome. First please allow me to briefly introduce myself.

I have been a mechanical engineer (BSME) throughout my whole career. Prior to my brake business, I worked for Worhtington Corp. (Mountainside, NJ) making fluid (gas and liquid) handling equipment such as pumps and compressors as a Project Manager, where I specialized in hydraulic and heat transfer.

My business in aftermarket automotive, before performance parts, was undercar parts; brake & suspension, drop shipping to national distributors/accounts and private label programs. In early 2000, RacingBrake.com was established for performance brakes.

Performance is quite different from traditional aftermarket, I quickly learned. Users are usually more informed of the latest developments than shop mechanics, and they exchange views and ideas on forums (like we are doing now). Racing professionals as well as weekend warriors are constantly searching for new products that can perform better, last longer and hopefully cost less, so they can push over their limits. That's what makes motorsports so challenging and thrilling.

Upon doing research on what was available and how these "performance" brakes are made and marketed, I know they can be improved. As a result I have received three (3) patents from USPTO in brake design. All of these patents are built into our brake products with proven results on tracks, which will be further elaborated as the discussion continues.

As Mike stated, we shall keep our discussion subjective and practical, we also welcome other brake companies to join the discussion, so we can learn together.

Thanks
 

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Warren,

Thank you for taking the time to join this forum in hopes of giving the NAGTROC community a better and more comprehensive understanding of today's braking technology. I know I for one, would be very interested in ANY future Brake product development for the GT-R platform. Especially developing a reliable AND cost effective alternative to some of the current higher end braking options available in the market place today.

I'm NOT a Mechanical Engineer....I DO NOT have a PHD in Heat Transfer. So I personally would like a greater understanding (in laymen terms) of the "how" and "why" my brakes do what they do. I would also hope that other Vendors, and members can also chime in to help all of us get a better grasp on what braking systems will work best with our SPECIFIC braking application.

[email protected]

.
 

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Warren,

I know 2 piece rotors are considered relatively "old technology" in the racing world, but until recently, Car Manufactures started adapting the 2 piece rotor design into there Mid Priced sports car line ups (GT-R, Evo X, STI, ect ect). So I'm just curious as to what your company's prior experience is with manufacturing 2 Piece Rotors, and more so, what 2 Piece rotor applications do you currently offer in the marketplace today?

[email protected]

.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
You guys at Racingbrake should make some of your Open slot rotors for the GTR
Yes, the Skyline two piece rotors are made with open slots finish and we shall post the pictures later with all the details including the weight, finishes etc.

Open slots were introduced in Summer 2007 to RX7 community in a group buy that RB developed a true balanced BBK (front and rear) upon Howard Coleman's request.

Here is an extensive review on how RB brake performs for RX7. (Reviewed in 2009, the most viewed brake thread in RX7club history)

How durable are those RB two piece rotors? - It's been 5 racing seasons as of this year and we still have no sales on replacement rings.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Warren,

Thank you for taking the time to join this forum in hopes of giving the NAGTROC community a better and more comprehensive understanding of today's braking technology. I know I for one, would be very interested in ANY future Brake product development for the GT-R platform. Especially developing a reliable AND cost effective alternative to some of the current higher end braking options available in the market place today.

I'm NOT a Mechanical Engineer....I DO NOT have a PHD in Heat Transfer. So I personally would like a greater understanding (in laymen terms) of the "how" and "why" my brakes do what they do. I would also hope that other Vendors, and members can also chime in to help all of us get a better grasp on what braking systems will work best with our SPECIFIC braking application.

[email protected]

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I am a car driver just like you and other members that want to make sure our money is well spent for the most important safety item - Brakes.

We dealt with customers from street to weekend racers (not professional racing teams that most legendary brand dealers quoted to have their products associated with). Their feedbacks inspired us to those brake inventions.

During our discussion, I will assure you that my answer will be plain and simple, no technical jargon, no gimmick. All based on physics and material science if we have to quote the reference. We use AISI, ASTM or SAE as our brake material design standards and FMSI (Friction Materials Standards Institute) for brake pad & shoe.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Warren,

I know 2 piece rotors are considered relatively "old technology" in the racing world, but until recently, Car Manufactures started adapting the 2 piece rotor design into there Mid Priced sports car line ups (GT-R, Evo X, STI, ect ect). So I'm just curious as to what your company's prior experience is with manufacturing 2 Piece Rotors, and more so, what 2 Piece rotor applications do you currently offer in the marketplace today?

[email protected]
.
That's true, the two piece rotors is not a new technology however come as standard for a stock car is relatively recent. There are some on Mercedes AMG, but notably (motorsports) was on EVO X MR model (08+) and follow by GT-R (09+).

RB was the first brake company introduced its two piece stock replacement rotors for EVO 8 and STi (both come with Brembo calipers) along with 350Z and G35 (Track models) in 2004. As of today we offer two piece rotors from Acura (NSX & S2000), to VW (R32 & GTI) just about all the popular motorsports cars from all car makes. including the most recent release of GM's super muscle cars such as Z06, CTS-V and CamaroSS.

As for Nissan, RB keep tracks of their HP/Brake growth over the years, and our last release was for 370Z (Sports) and G37S (Infiniti) two piece rotors, now GT-R.

Not only RB makes more applications than ALL other competitions combined, we also excel the industry standard in the way how a true high performance two piece rotors should be made; in design and metallurgy which shall be further elaborated as our discussion continues.

Meantime please feel free to ask any questions you have for your street driving, track challenge, or anything you think the OE/aftermarket brake products should be improved etc...
 

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Warren,

Can you explain what your "Cooling Air Inlet Ports" and "Convergent Cool Veins" exactly do?

Obviously they aid in cooling, I got that part, but how is this any different from the oem/other 2 piece rotors already available today ?

I see the picture of YOUR brand caliper weight, just wondering what the OEM unit weighs in at ?

[email protected]

.
 

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How much are your rotors for the GT-R?
Never mind found the price using your link for G37 and navigating to Nissan R35.
 

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I hope these work out well for customers! Always good to see new products especially for much needed brakes.

The gtr is very heavy and produces a lot of heat... I hope these can cope with that and are well tested.
Btw what happens when during testing and they are not good enough, what kind of steps would you take to improve the design? And I'm in no way saying its not good enough.

Imho the gtr should have a brake cooling package as an addon in the USA cause they get so hot even with aftermarket rotors/pads.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Warren,

Can you explain what your "Cooling Air Inlet Ports" and "Convergent Cool Veins" exactly do?

Obviously they aid in cooling, I got that part, but how is this any different from the oem/other 2 piece rotors already available today ?

I see the picture of YOUR brand caliper weight, just wondering what the OEM unit weighs in at ?

[email protected]

.
Traditional two piece rotors, the hat is attached to the disc tabs (x10) located on outer surface (Surface Mount), this assembly entirely blocks the cooling air from outboard (wheel), and only the inboard air port is available, if the dust shield is not removed it also restricts the cooling air entry, so the overall air admitted into the discs is more limited.

RB two piece rotors are of Center-Mount design - The hat is attached to the tabs that are centrally located and alternating from both inboard and outboard, the air ports are widely open on both inboard (ball joint side) and outboard (wheel side).


This design has the following merits over the traditional design:

1. Increase the air flow
2. Lower inlet air temperature
3. Disc subject to little bending stress -The assembly plane is in the disc center so the stress from bending moment (as the brake is applied), is very minimal comparing to surface mount's cantilever bending stress.
4. Low and less heat transfer from disc to hat. Whilst the heat transfer on traditional surface mount is direct and quick (causing uneven surface temperature)

Convergent Vanes

RB's convergent vane design is an unique (patented) feature that make good use of cooling air. It allows the cooling air to stay in the vanes longer (increase the outlet air temp-see formula below), while conventional curved vane due to the outer circumference is larger than inner, with the same number of curved vanes the outlet is wider than inlet port which is not efficient as the inlet air is more restricted and travels right through the vanes and discharged with less effective than improved convergent vanes.

Benefit: A more efficient heat dissipation system resulting a more uniform temperature across the disc (inner to outer edge, inboard to outboard) which can minimize the common over heat issue - rotor warping and cracking


Heat removal = Air flow x (T2-T1)​
T1= Air temp @ entry (inner edge)​
T2= Air temp @ exit (outer edge)​

An efficient heat dissipation is to keep T1 LOW and T2 HIGH, with air flow as much as possible through natural circulation.
The idea is to remove the heat from the disc plate and much and as quickly as possible (especially for racing application) and keep the rotor temperature "LOW" which means all other components; pad, piston, caliper, brake fluid will be running in a healthier environment with less problem and lower the maintenance down time and cost.

Here I like to introduce the concept of "Heat Sink", the rotor which is similar to your "wash sink" except it's holding "water", while the rotor is holding the "heat".
The heat to the rotor is just like the water to the water sink. If the heat generated (water flow into the sink) is very rapid and can not be drained quick enough, the sink will overflow.

Increasing the rotor size is like installing a larger "water sink", although it helps to hold more heat (water) but as rotor gets bigger it gets heavier with penalty of weight and maneuverability. For truck/trailer applications it works well because they drive slow (don't have much speed to dissipate the heat), but for racing applications (@high speed), I still believe "draining" capability is much better than "holding" capacity.

I will respond to calipers later.
 

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So do you have any data logging charts of rotor temps of your rotors compared to conventional 2-piece rotors over about 10 laps that shows how much cooler the average and peak rotor temps are. Without real data on track, it is hard to judge if benefit is marginal or significant. It is easy to make claims that one product is better than another, and data makes the difference and serves to validate the claim.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Imho the gtr should have a brake cooling package as an addon in the USA cause they get so hot even with aftermarket rotors/pads.
As mentioned above, we guarantee that our two-piece rotors will perform better than the OE or any competitor's rotor in resolving brake overheating issues.

----------------------------

We have dealt with drivers of other vehicles such as Evos and VWs who had the same problems with their brakes overheating. Our two-piece rotors have been proven to solve their overheating issues. We realize that the GT-R is larger and heavier than these cars, but the fundamental issue is identical: The OE brake setup is sufficient for street driving, but insufficient for track racing.

For example, one of our recent customers, Eddy, from Australia originally had this problem with his VW MK4:
Eddy Kerr said:
...the heat is just too much for standard set-up, but tuned up such as backing plates cut down, slotting the original rotors, Motul RBF 600 fluid, ducted cooling & Ferodo DS3000 for the track. Still stopping, but double pumping at these times is scary.
He tried our two-piece rotors and his latest report from the track was concise:
Eddy Kerr said:
I attended a recent track day, no more heat problems, all gone & much more stoppy. Very pleased with the results.
 

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I see your site ( http://www.racingbra...ensive_Search=Y ) you offer two different sizes of Front Rotors for the GT-R depending on what year.

2011 calls for a 386x33, were as the previous models call for a 376x34. Can I run the larger diameter 2011 rotors on my 2010 ?

[email protected]
If I am not mistaken 08-11 GT-R calipers are leg mount type (two mounting legs cast to caliper inboard half), which tends to flex more than radial mount. According to Nissan website the caliper for 2012 seems to have changed to radial mount (3 point).



If this is true, then I would say the rotor size change (from 380x34 to 390x33) is more to suit the new caliper than anything else -The diameter is 10mm larger but the rotor volume (heat sink) is reduced (from 34 to 33 mm).

The OE replacement rings will be made available for both sizes, but I doubt you can swap to 2012 rotor w/o some kind of adapters.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Without real data on track, it is hard to judge if benefit is marginal or significant. It is easy to make claims that one product is better than another, and data makes the difference and serves to validate the claim.
I agree, but our designs are very easy to understand why they may work better than conventional - In fact it's been proven in the race tracks over the years.

To assure consumers like you (not racing professional), there could be nothing more convincing than "money back" satisfaction guarantee. You can also go to various motorsports forums and check us out.
 
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