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TSM PRO1050 Injector Bench Test Video!

55K views 399 replies 72 participants last post by  Sales@Cicio 
#1 ·
This is a video of our TSM PRO1050 Injectors being bench tested vs. two other competitor 1000cc injectors.

I figured you guys would like to see the difference with your own eyes as the injector is actually firing.

There is a lot happening pretty quickly but I tried to slow it down a little so you could see the actually difference of what is happening in your intake manifold.

Hope this gives you guys some good information.

 
#4 ·
Yes Tony they are new Bosch Injectors.

Its a 30 degree cone, not split spray.

As i'm sure you know there are a couple split spray injectors from Bosch, however they are quite pricy and hard to get ahold of. We are having pretty awesome results with the 30 degree cone pattern.
 
#5 ·
You sure about that? Do some digging, that injector has been around for some time, it's for a Polaris snowmobile and is designed to spray into the crankcase of a 2 stroke engine. Bosch Motorsport is a separate division of Bosch. This is NOT a Bosch Motorsport injector.

Do some pressure sensitivity testing, that injector hardly opens at 8v and 5 bar fuel pressure.

Did you do ANY real testing other than looking at a spray pattern and flow rate?

The stock injector is a split spray pattern, suits the head well.

Yours has a 30Âş cone, that means 30Âş in all directions. Take a look at the head, the roof of the port is flat right past the injector port. That means 180Âş of that spray is going directly on the port roof. FAR from the stock split spray pattern.

And do you honestly expect people to believe that you found a 30+% reduction in 'mid range fueling'? "[background=rgb(246, 246, 246)]We had to remove almost 30% fuel through the mid range at partial throttle"[/background]

This would mean that you take a stock car and swap in ID1000's and you have to add 30% fueling to the midrange, which would give you a totally fucked VE table or MAF curve, right?

What makes it 30% different through the 'mid range' and at partial throttle but not elsewhere?
 
#11 · (Edited by Moderator)
Tony, while I appreciate and respect you as a valued member of the community and an addition to the GT-R world in general the below statement comes across very harsh. I am not attacking you in any way nor have I said that your injectors are sub par to anyone public or private. Please don't turn this into an attack on me, lets keep this professional and most of all informative for the GT-R owners.

That being said, some of the information below is incorrect so I will point that out without trying to start some online battle that will not benefit the community in any way.

And do you honestly expect people to believe that you found a 30+% reduction in 'mid range fueling'? "[background=rgb(246, 246, 246)]We had to remove almost 30% fuel through the mid range at partial throttle"[/background]

This would mean that you take a stock car and swap in ID1000's and you have to add 30% fueling to the midrange, which would give you a totally fucked VE table or MAF curve, right?

What makes it 30% different through the 'mid range' and at partial throttle but not elsewhere?
As for the tuning section of your accusation, I will let Doug answer that if need be as I have not personally tuned these injectors. I will however say that I have spent 3 years telling this community nothing but the truth and have built a reputation around open honest business practice. So attacking me without ever testing or even seeing the product isn't something I feel is founded.

Again I have absolutely no desire to discredit you or your product as we have used, and tuned it for many years without issue with the quality. I simply saw an opportunity to bring something to the GT-R market that I felt would help move us all into better, more efficient modding.

As I would hope everyone knows we don't just market these products, we aren't an online store or a parts slinger. We build cars, race cars, and prove things before we stand behind them. These are no exception.

Thank you for the questions Tony.
 
#7 ·
In to watch this one... popcorn is in the microwave
 
#17 ·
Sorry if I come across harsh, all of the 'competitor's injector' stuff is what makes me come in here and defend my product. I see some false information and think it should be cleared.

In regards to this being a Motorsport piece, notice the part numbers. It's a production piece, it was made FOR Polaris. Polaris didn't find it and decide it works well in the application, it was built for them to their spec. Part of that spec is 3 bar operating pressure. I have seen many claims (not from you, from others selling this 'new motorsport' injector) that these injectors will work up to 8 bar which is not even close to the truth. Fuel Injector Connection has put this rumor out that this is a new "Bosch Motorsport" injector and everyone is slapping their name on it.

This core injector is what's modified by others to make the 1100 and 1150cc injectors.

Notice on the sheet the differentiation between production pieces and Motorsport pieces.


You said you were modifying these injectors for 'slightly more flow', is that really the case? If I test one of yours it'll flow more than the 040 unmodified?

Eager to hear the details from Doug on the 30% reduction in fueling in the midrange and at part throttle.
 
#19 ·
I am actually just about to order a set of these injectors. I have a lot of respect for both TopSpeed and T1, so this thread is both a good thing, yet confusing to some degree.

In regards to this being a Motorsport piece, notice the part numbers. It's a production piece, it was made FOR Polaris. Polaris didn't find it and decide it works well in the application, it was built for them to their spec. Part of that spec is 3 bar operating pressure.
Also, please explain the above a little more and how that affects my GTR ..
 
#21 ·
A lot of things go into having an injector work properly for a certain application.

The way a spray pattern looks at atmospheric pressure is one thing, how it works in an engine under operating conditions is something different.

This injector I have a bunch of siting on the shelf, and the info has caused me to re-investigate the details. Being in the high performance fuel injection industry for longer than most here, I have learned a few things.

Spray pattern has a small effect of creating an homogeneous fuel mixture in a cylinder. You have to contend with Air speed, Fuel speed, and fuel droplet size, the closer you can match the fuel speed to the air speed, but better it will mix as the air goes by.

I would LOVE LOVE to do a double blind injector dyno test and emissions test with injectors of this size range. At the end of the day its how they perform in the car.
 
#29 ·
Hey Bill,

I absolutely agree with you that it is all about how the injector performs in the car! Which is the only reason I invested in these in the first place because they worked!

Maybe we could arrange some type of test to help the community. I'm pretty slammed right now as we are two people short today in the office, however I will call you back as soon as I can.
 
#31 ·
Therein lies the question, IS the fuel better atomized as it enters the combustion chamber? A picture of an injector spraying behind a window surely doesn't answer that question.
 
#32 ·
As for all that is getting passed back & forth about TopSpeed's injectors vs. all other injectors: phrases like CC's, disbursement, 30% cone & homogeneous fuel mixture are being used. As Jeremy Clarkston said, "I don't understand any of that". What I do know & understand: I've been taking my car to TopSpeed for two years and have had Doug's tunes since then. The only thing that has been changed on my car recently is the addition of the TopSpeed injectors. It has made a noticeable difference, especially in my mid-range.
My car is so much more solid, in all ranges; but the biggest difference has been the stabilization of my mid-range. When the car is under heavy acceleration, there is a better than 50% reduction in the soot coming out of my exhaust. I love the car and all that has been done to it prior to changing the injectors; but I find myself more excited to jump behind the wheel now that she's so much more solid than before. The car feels healthier; & I attribute this to the injectors. They are a superior product. Check them out.
 
#33 ·
As for all that is getting passed back & forth about TopSpeed's injectors vs. all other injectors: phrases like CC's, disbursement, 30% cone & homogeneous fuel mixture are being used. As Jeremy Clarkston said, "I don't understand any of that". What I do know & understand: I've been taking my car to TopSpeed for two years and have had Doug's tunes since then. The only thing that has been changed on my car recently is the addition of the TopSpeed injectors. It has made a noticeable difference, especially in my mid-range.
My car is so much more solid, in all ranges; but the biggest difference has been the stabilization of my mid-range. When the car is under heavy acceleration, there is a better than 50% reduction in the soot coming out of my exhaust. I love the car and all that has been done to it prior to changing the injectors; but I find myself more excited to jump behind the wheel now that she's so much more solid than before. The car feels healthier; & I attribute this to the injectors. They are a superior product. Check them out.
Can you elaborate?

What exactly is 'stabilization of mid-range'?

What is 'more solid'?

No offense, but they sound like BS claims from somebody trying to sell something.

The change in soot on the back of the car has been proven in optimizing injection timing, so I don't think we can say that change is solely, or in any way, from the injectors.
 
#37 · (Edited by Moderator)
I am by no means, able to answer or debate these two guys however, the question should be, What is best for the client(s) setup?

Why does Injector Dynamics make ID 2000's? Why are those used in GTR's? More fuel? More power? Both? If TopSpeed has made a change to there product line for the GTR and put there name on it to explain how it will help with certain applications/power levels, why would another vendor come in and start a flame war? I don't think TopSpeed is hiding anything. From this thread alone they have been up front and honest from what I can tell.

*side note*

I am glad TopSpeed is keeping it professional.

Isn't that what it is all about? Being informed as consumers and purchasing what WE think is best for our cars?
 
#43 ·
You're not taking that the way I see it.

It's not about 'there's no need to improve', it's about what's actually an improvement. Clearly you read the information posted and ASSume there IS an improvement, but what are you basing that on?
 
#48 ·
i wasnt aware that calling peoples real life experience bullshit or calling me an Ass because I like seeing advancements im the technology available to us a technical discussion.

with that being said im out. Oh and just so you know i had a set of ID2000s installed in my car this week by topspeed
 
#46 ·
Sales pitch or not, I know that after threads like this what vendors I want to deal with and which I do not. Part of being a professional is knowing how to "message." Even if you know it all you need to be able to portray that in a way that doesn't put everyone off.

Please keep putting out data and results so the community can judge on merit for themselves and make an informed decision. We all want an injector that will allow us to make reliable big power and drive close to stock. That's the beauty of competition, it drives innovation for the consumer.
 
#47 ·
I really don't want this thread to take this turn. There is good stuff in it for the community.

We are trying to provide the most info possible and be as transparent as possible. These injectors are being tested on other cars as well so hopefully the results speak for themselves. I feel I have given as much real data as possible, and maybe more data then some would like. The injectors work, and they work very well. Tony so do yours...they are made by the same people.

Lets squash this unless there is something else that is information packed and not assumption that can be posted. I really don't want the mods to have to come delete all this data from both me, Bill, and Tony.
 
#49 ·
I'm ALL FOR a civil technical discussion, that's where we can all learn something. I hate that a technical discussion like this on a forum always turns off topic and the original point is lost and questions remain unanswered.

Will you do the flow test at 4 and 8 bar, at 13-14 volts like I asked and share the results? It's not a common test people do on a test bench like that but it can tell you a little about an injector. If the dead time increase overcomes the flow increase as fuel pressure increases, the dynamic flow rate (what matters on a running engine) actually decreases with pressure increases. If that happens, even though an injector will techincally open at 8 bar, would you agree you wouldn't run them at 8 bar?

I read in one of your other posts that you guys modify these for more flow, I asked about it previously but it hasn't been answered yet.

Eager to hear Doug's take on the fuel reduction as well, I can't wrap my head around that one.
 
#77 ·
I agree, we keep getting off topic. Lets stop with the nonsense and talk about this.

I'll ask again. You say you modify these to increase flow. If I flow test these and a shelf 040, i'll get different results?

As far as why a snowmobile would need such a large injector, it's a 2 stroke engine, don't try to relate it to a 4 stroke when considering injector size.
 
#52 ·
If we all PM each other then it's not going to do anything for the forum. So i'll ask you again here. All i'm doing you is asking honest questions, I do not know what you mean by your description. Ask me anything you want, i'll answer it here in the open.

[background=rgb(246, 246, 246)]Can you elaborate? [/background]

[background=rgb(246, 246, 246)]What exactly is 'stabilization of mid-range'?[/background]

[background=rgb(246, 246, 246)]What is 'more solid'?[/background]
 
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