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So I got out to High Plains Raceway today and tested out the willall mister system. Let me start of by describing the kit and what I received:

-The tank with 2 pumps
-the brake cooling kit (lines, fittings, etc)
-the mister coolers for the oil cooler and tranny cooler (I am running the Greddy DCT cooler) along with two extra misting blocks that I didn't use in lieu of a homemade 5 mister line for the radiator mounted about 2" in front of the AC condensor / radiator
-seperate control module for the brake cooling (which activates > 40mph and on the brakes)
-seperate control module for the water misters which basically activates when you let OFF of the brake and sprays for 5 seconds (came to find out later that is adjustable from 1 - 60 seconds)

Mods on the car for this track day:
-AAM resonated midpipe
-Greddy upgraded stock location FMICs
-Greddy DCT transmission cooler
-Willall original tranny fluid
-and a first at this track day I tried out bish's oil cocktail - 50% Castrol 10w-60 and 50% Mobil1 0w-40 (upon colstart I noticed only 1-5psi higher pressure at certain warmup points but that might have even have been noise @ 60F ambient)

Overall had a great day at the track which is always great and quantified by being able to drive there, have fun, and drive your GTR back home without incident
. It was also a bit funny but I felt bad that my co-pilot (not GTR-Roger) almost got sick in the first heat and then had me pit to let him out under the cry of stomach 'uncle' on the 2nd lap of the second heat [heh]. It was funny because he was excited to ride and thought he had a pretty solid stomach up to that point in his life (in his mid 40s) but after the GTR experience he was able to explore new personal limits hehe. Luckily I was able to find a fellow car enthusiast I had met after the first heat who was thrilled to go out for a spin. Was kind of funny that he was an old time Mopar gear head who claimed to have a good 'roller coaster' stomach but after his first heat he even admitted that it took him a couple of laps to 'find his stomach' [heh]. Good times indeed. But he proved to be a worthy co-pilot in the end.

So on to the track data:

Here is how I tested:
-FIRST HEAT - 5 laps - ambient temp 60F - NO mister or brake cooling used at all (Baseline test)

lap
# | oil - coolant - tranny
pit 161 - 177 - 141
1 192 - 192 - 165
2 230 - 215 - 186
3 249 - 208 - 203
4 255 - 213 - 212
5 260 - 206 - 222

at the end of the 5th HOT lap I hot pitted and measured front rotor temp @ 930F on the outside edge (where it was hottest - inside edge was in the 7xxF range). I then went out for a cool down lap and came back in.

-SECOND HEAT - 30 minutes later - 7 laps - ambient temp 70F - turned on brake coolers and misting blocks for the oil and tranny coolers (but NOT for the radiator)

lap
# | oil - coolant - tranny
pit 183 - 179 - 172
1 203 - 188 - 179
2 228 - 210 - 196
3 226 - 195 - 197 (this was a slower lap since had to pit because my co-pilot was getting sick [heh] - grabbed new co-pilot quick)
4 240 - 210 - 210
5 250 - 210 - 230
6 260 - 212 - 230
7 260 - 201 - 231
cd 204 - 192 - 208 (cooldown lap - you can see that using the misters (by lightly applying the brake) really brought the temps down quickly)

- used up about 1/5th of the tank (it was 3" down from the top)

at the end of the 7th HOT lap I hot pitted and measured front rotor temp @ 800F on the outside edge again where it was hottest. So that shows a 130F+ drop in hot rotor temps. I must also say that I have NO idea on what the upper temp limits are of my made-for-cooking heat laser gun so I am not 100% sure how accurate these very high numbers are. It was interesting though that I had a very hard time spotting the laser pointer on the rotor the hotter they were.

I have to say that I was VERY suprised at the improved brake pedal feel. Up to this point in tracking my GTR I only got some very light fade once or twice and I never felt the brakes were getting soft but after going down the long straight (140mph down to 7X mph range) the first couple of times with the brake cooler enabled the brake pedal feel was much higher and firmer.

Looking at the data above yes I still hit redline in oil but I got there more slowly when compared lap-to-lap with the first heat and I have to admit that I was getting my track groove back more on this heat AND the improved brake pedal gave me a bit of new found confidence to push harder than before.

- THIRD HEAT - 30 minutes later - 5 laps - ambient temp 75F - turned on brake coolers, misting blocks for oil, tranny, AND 5 misters for radiator

lap
# | oil - coolant - tranny
pit 181 - 186 - 190
1 208 - 203 - 196
2 237 - 213 - 206
3 249 - 219 - 219
4 255 - 219 - 228
5 270 - 221 - 239 (this was just a VERY good HOT lap where I got to go ALL out with no traffic which is the only reason I can think of the oil temp jump)

- used about 1/4 of the tank of water (about 4" down from the top)

I do have to admit that I was pushing the car a bit harder as I was getting my track driving groove back on the 3rd heat plus the 15F hotter ambient temps. BUT I though I would see 260F as the hottest and hopefully 250F (10F less than first and second heat) on the 3rd heat but I didn't.

So overall my verdict is the brake cooling portion works very well as advertised. The mister cooling for the oil and tranny coolers needs some tweaking. After presenting my results to Martin he suggested that I turn up the time-to-spray after releasing the brakes from 5 seconds to about 10. That would put the misters on for about the entire 2.5 mile lap which is ok with me since I had plenty of water left after each heat. I was also not expecting that great of results from the radiator misters since they are SO close to the AC condensor (like 2") that the mist pattern only spreads out to about 2-3" before hitting it AND then the water has to regroup to get to the radiator. I think it would work better if the AC condensor was either removed or the misters were mounted closer to the front of the grill to get more time to develop the spray pattern [shrug].

Before hitting the track next month I plan to do the following experiments:
-try and hook up my video boroscope to watch the mister spray pattern at speeds of 60-70mph (the speeds I average when letting off of the brakes and the misters activate at my local track) since my weak-stomached co-pilot and I suspect that there might be so much air flow the mist is getting cut off and only hitting a very narrow band of the coolers
-if that doesn't work I am going to go to a local dyno where they have a HUGE fan to simulate the same thing
-if I find that the water spray is getting 'cut short' of the full face of the coolers I will come up with a different misting configuration

Either way I am planning on upping the spray time to 10 seconds.

One interesting side note on the oil is that I don't think it helped much with the temps BUT I have to say that it looks NOTICEABLY better on the dip stick afterwards than the stock Mobil1 straight fill. It has almost no darkness to it yet where as the Mobil1 would have been a pretty dark brown after that kind of beating. So I am going to keep that mix in the car until the next track event then send off a sample to Blackstone for analysis hoping for lowered weat metals.

=========================================================================

UPDATE - 10-15-2010

Second track day with results from my 'tweaks' as described in post #25.

Summary:
- extended the spray time for the oil and tranny cooler misters from 5 seconds to 12 seconds.
- only ran one pump for those 4 misters (2 for oil and 2 for tranny). Did NOT run the radiator sprayers ever today.
- EVERYTHING else was the same

Again this is all in manual tranny R mode with R mode on everything else. I do have to say that I narrowed down the last 1/4 of the track is where my oil temps shoot WAY up. I am talking from 255 - 272 in 1/4 of a single lap. It is a section where I am pretty much between 6000-7000rpm in 2nd and 3rd the entire time with VERY little braking.

First Session - ambient temps were 66F in the morning
lap
# | oil - coolant - tranny
1 | 200 - 199 - 177
2 | 230 - 204 - 194
3 | 242 - 208 - 210
4 | 253 - 210 - 219
5 | 249 - 208 - 224 - This was a slower group as I caught up to and had to work my way through a small group of cars
6 | 253 - 216 - 230
7 | 255 - 213 - 239
8 | 255 - 210 - 244

Second session - ambient temp were 70F

I took a friend of mine on the track for this session. It was his first time out to a race track EVER as he is not a car guy so I didn't want him to fully enjoy the experience without having to worry about scribbling down data every lap. But this session can be summed up as follows:
- did 4 very hot laps and peak temps were
lap
# | oil - coolant - tranny
4 | 272 - 222 - 242

Eric & Jason from Boulder Nissan timed me from the stands at between 2:04 - 2:09 lap times on this session. I was slightly slower because I was REALLY having 'fun' and doing some drifts etc.

This was the session where I started realizing my oil temps were hovering right between 250-260 after about lap 2 and then when I got to that last third part of the lap where I was near/at redline almost constantly the temps would go up to 272F (I didn't mean for them to go that high as I usually back off when they hit 260F but the temp rose from 255-272 in about 30 seconds or so on this very technical stretch so I wasn't looking at the oil temp for that 30 seconds to know that I had to back off.

Third Session - ambient temps were 72F at the start and 78F by the last lap

This session I intentionally dialed back the 'fun meter' and tried to take the best lines in terms of speeds to maximize my lap times. Jason and Eric again timed a few of my laps and said my lap times were between 2:03 - 2:04.

lap
# | oil - coolant - tranny
pit 177 - 188 - 181
1 | 210 - 206 - 190
2 | 230 - 210 - 206
3 | 249 - 221 - 219
4 | 257 - 222 - 228
5 | 263 - 220 - 236
CD| 224 - 192 - 222

Fourth Session - ambient temps were 78F at the start and 81F by the last lap

This session I just went out and was driving somewhere between having a lot of fun and trying for times.

lap
# | oil - coolant - tranny
pit | 183 - 185 - 188
1 | 221 - 210 - 201
2 | 233 - 210 - 212
3 | 259 - 220 - 224
4 | 260 - 213 - 231
CD | 217 - 188 - 213

To be honest since the weather was about the same as last time save 5F or so warmer overall I was honestly expecting to stay <= 250F on that first session but it did seem to stabilize around 255F which is good but not what I hoped for. Then in the successive sessions as the day got warmer so did the oil temps. I did start playing around a bit with backing off to 7 - 8/10ths in that last 1/4 of the lap where my oil temps would shoot up by keeping the rpms lower (4k range) by staying in 3rd and that seemed to stabilize the temps right at 260F. But if I downshifted into 2nd like I normally do in some or those parts the temp would literally jump up 3-5F every 10 seconds or so.

Overall I still think the brake cooling works great but I would say the misting kit for the oil and tranny does help some but I would say 10F or so from my experience. For now I am going to sit tight and see what products come out by the spring. At this point I am leaning towards the BoostLogic oil cooler upgrade to try and get another 10-15F drop.
 

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Thank you very very much david. I'm sure we will all be awaiting more data from you.

I'm sorry the 50/50 cocktail doesn't seem to be as effective for you as it has been for me. I just got back from VIR where again I was running less than 200 degrees F all day. Maybe this mix suits VIR and CMP much better, since there are long long straights to get lots and lots of air in between the corners.

But, concerning the misters, good to hear the subjective report about the brake pedal, and the 100 degree temp reduction in the rotor temp. I suspected as much.

Can you comment on ease of installation and quality of instructions?

Shawn
 

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Thanks for write up.

I'm a little disappointed that the water mister didn't help with the oil temps for you. I had hoped maybe this system would prevent me from needing the Cobb secondary oil cooler but I guess the mister won't quite do the trick.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Thank you very very much david. I'm sure we will all be awaiting more data from you.

I'm sorry the 50/50 cocktail doesn't seem to be as effective for you as it has been for me. I just got back from VIR where again I was running less than 200 degrees F all day. Maybe this mix suits VIR and CMP much better, since there are long long straights to get lots and lots of air in between the corners.

But, concerning the misters, good to hear the subjective report about the brake pedal, and the 100 degree temp reduction in the rotor temp. I suspected as much.

Can you comment on ease of installation and quality of instructions?

Shawn
Unfortunately I can't really comment on the installation since Eric @ Boulder Nissan did it (and did a great job I have to say even as being as anal as I am). But the instructions were unfortunately non-existent. Martin asked me who would be installing it so I don't know if he didn't include directions since he knew that Eric had previously installed the brake kit before [shrug].

Honestly though it is pretty straight forward as long as you know what ECU signals are for brake and the speed signal.

Yah if the oil at least gives me lower wear numbers I will be more than happy with it!
 

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Unfortunately I can't really comment on the installation since Eric @ Boulder Nissan did it (and did a great job I have to say even as being as anal as I am). But the instructions were unfortunately non-existent. Martin asked me who would be installing it so I don't know if he didn't include directions since he knew that Eric had previously installed the brake kit before [shrug].
Yeah. Same for my differential cooler. Seems that WillAll is relying on the "online" instruction sets on the website.

Honestly though it is pretty straight forward as long as you know what ECU signals are for brake and the speed signal.
I don't. For what these kits are costing, a simple instuction sheet of "connect to the 'light blue' wire on the ECU (pin 13)" doesn't seem out of line to me.

Yah if the oil at least gives me lower wear numbers I will be more than happy with it!
It did for me. I hope it does the same for you. If bish's most recent change comes through better than mine, then I'm sold on the Castrol, but we'll see.

Shawn
 

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Thanks David, some great testing and ideas on what to look at next! What is the length and altitude of the track and do you happen to remember the relative humidity that day? Do you happen to know your lap times for each lap?
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Thanks David, some great testing and ideas on what to look at next! What is the length and altitude of the track and do you happen to remember the relative humidity that day? Do you happen to know your lap times for each lap?
The track is 2.55 miles long and the altitude is between 5000-6000ft ASL I don't know what the humidity was that day specifically but it is typically around 35% give or take.

Previous outings my best lap time was a 2:03. I only know that because Jason @ Boulder is usually nice enough to follow me (at a miserly pace for his car [heh]) to see what I do for lap times. But I would honestly say even though I didn't have any actual lap taking equipment this time I would say that last lap on the last heat I was in the 2:01 range. For lap time comparisons a local race instructor, Michael Petiford, told me he does high 1:5x range in his track prepped Z06.

Here is the track layout (it actually has quite a bit of elevation change as well)
 

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From the results David it would seem that there isnt enough volume with the radiator spray bar you made in place
The Misters seem to be working properly (considering the small 5 second on time) in the second session, but look to struggle once the radiator cooling is taking capacity from them, which means the radiator spray should probably have its own pump (I am not sure of the flow rates you have chosen for the radiator spray jets you made).

The good news is that adjusting the on-time will give you a result. You can adjust the Misting time from anywhere starting at a second out to 60 seconds very simply and easily. And when it comes to water cooling, its only a matter of 'how much' or for 'how long' rather than 'if' its going to work. The WR35WS brake cooling system proves that 100%
 

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Thanks David -your efforts to share your experience and log this data is greatly appreciated. I am carefully evaluating what will be my next steps for cooling and this is great info.

Glad to hear you are getting good results with the brake cooling. Disappointed you didn't see better results on the oil temps. I was really hoping for some results similar to Shawn's when he saw a drop in oil temps with the Castrol/Mobil mix. I just switched to this cocktail as well. I do have data from 2 sources that shows a 10-15 degree drop in oil temps at the track with a larger replacement cooler . . . the Greddyand HKS DCT cooler solutions are not compatible with the Cobb secondary oil cooler.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
From the results David it would seem that there isnt enough volume with the radiator spray bar you made in place
The Misters seem to be working properly (considering the small 5 second on time) in the second session, but look to struggle once the radiator cooling is taking capacity from them, which means the radiator spray should probably have its own pump (I am not sure of the flow rates you have chosen for the radiator spray jets you made).
Yah I agree. The mister heads I used on the radiator misters are actually the same size as the ones that come in your kit Martin from what I can tell. When I was working on mounting the misters for the radiator I was a bit skeptical as to how well they would work given how close they were and the fact they had to spray throught the AC condensor. So for now I am going to disable them and focus on the oil and tranny misters. I was even thinking of using an extra pump to have 2x pumps feeding the same line for the 4 misters for the oil and tranny coolers. So much to try ... so little time [heh].
 

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So there is no difference in oil temps with this misting kit.

1. Misting off, lap 4-5, oil is at 255-260F
2. Misting on, lap 5-6, oil is at 250-260F (one slow lap compared to previous)
3. Misting on, lap 4-5, oil is at 255-270F

Seems like a complete waste of money in terms of oil cooling, as that data shows no evidence of any benefit.

If you want extra cooling, add a real cooler, Mocal, Setrab, etc, and proper ducting.
 

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Descartesfool,

Seems like once again you couldn't wait to tear apart anything that Willall produces. In the original post David acknowledges that the system requires some tweaking re how long the misting stays on for (it was only set at 5secs). Wouldn't it be better to wait for additional data to come in once the misters have been setup correctly before making comments that the system is a complete waste of money?? Or should we all just jump on the anti Willall bandwagon that you are steering around the forums?

I've got all the Willall gear on my car and it has worked as advertised, I'd tell you if it didn't.

Cheers

Slip

So there is no difference in oil temps with this misting kit.

1. Misting off, lap 4-5, oil is at 255-260F
2. Misting on, lap 5-6, oil is at 250-260F (one slow lap compared to previous)
3. Misting on, lap 4-5, oil is at 255-270F

Seems like a complete waste of money in terms of oil cooling, as that data shows no evidence of any benefit.

If you want extra cooling, add a real cooler, Mocal, Setrab, etc, and proper ducting.
 

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Descartesfool, Seems like once again you couldn't wait to tear apart anything that Willall produces.
Slip I wouldnt get too excited about it. This is the same poster that made it his personal goal in life to convince the world that our WR35WS brake water injection system wouldnt/couldnt/shouldnt and would never work based on google searching and pit paddock photos. Fact is - as shown by every independent review on this forum - WR35WS is stunning in effect and is currently the only tested true and effective cooling solution for GTR brakes. Sorry for the water haters on this one.

The misting system will deliver the same high end results - remember Slip if something is too hot that it cant be cooled by a little water, then add more water and eventually you will find a point where it cools. This is not rocket science, and the the thing about the misting system is you CAN adjust the amount of cooling so its not like an upgraded oil cooler where you are stuck with its performance if its doesnt work, this system you can adjust up till you find your happy point as we are sure david_sh will do
 

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Nothing to worry about. Show me the data that the mister actually cools the oil and I will be happy to change my mind. So far, data is not showing any benefit in terms of oil cooling, which is what I would have expected. Also, look at the data for the coolant temps with mister on or off, and there does not seem to be any benefit there either. Coolant temp is getting to 219-221 F with 5 misters on. That is hot coolant. Hopefully a supplementary oil cooler would take load off the engine heat production and thus also reduce the coolant temps.

David's Greddy DCT cooler seems to be cooling the transmission according to his data posted above even without the misters, as does the HKS DCT cooler. Willall data did not seem to pan out in terms of tranny coolers for anyone who posted data on this board that I saw, and data they posted did not match the numbers Martin had posted.

Perhaps adjusting the misters will make a significant change. What people don't seem to realize is that a misting technique for detonation risk reduction, used to cool air inside air pipes exiting an intercooler or on an intercooler's surface itself is very different than trying to cool a radiator full of fluid via a water mist. The air mass in a charge pipe or intercooler is orders of magnitude less than the fluid mass inside a coolant radiator or oil cooler. The air weighs a little over 1 kg/m3 inside the charge pipe while water inside the radiator weighs about 1000 kg/m3. Thus misting used to cool air is not the same as misting to cool a fluid.
 

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So there is no difference in oil temps with this misting kit.

1. Misting off, lap 4-5, oil is at 255-260F
2. Misting on, lap 5-6, oil is at 250-260F (one slow lap compared to previous)
3. Misting on, lap 4-5, oil is at 255-270F

Seems like a complete waste of money in terms of oil cooling, as that data shows no evidence of any benefit.

If you want extra cooling, add a real cooler, Mocal, Setrab, etc, and proper ducting.
Without data on increase in lap pace those conclusions are invalid. In fact the increase in ambient alone between run #1 (60F) and #3 (75F) shows the misting is having an effect. David is on the right path to look for subsequent improvements with spray duration and confirming the coverage pattern of the spray.

In light of David's results I guess you were equally off the mark on your thesis and "Wikipedia + Google engineering" that the brake misting would provide absolutely no benefit on the track.

Nice to see someone coming up with real world data as opposed to search results and conjecture...
 

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David,

Thanks for sharing the data.

I would do this: remove the misters to the radiator, and markedly increase the volume delivered to the engine oil cooler and DCT cooler. IF you can get the engine oil temps down, you'll help the water temps as a by-product.

Bish
 

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David,

Thanks for sharing the data.

I would do this: remove the misters to the radiator, and markedly increase the volume delivered to the engine oil cooler and DCT cooler. IF you can get the engine oil temps down, you'll help the water temps as a by-product.

Bish
+1 with some extras.

Forget EVERYTHING but the brakes and oil cooler. Direct ALL water flow outside brakes to the oil cooler.

While I plaster Nissan for a lot of problems, inadequate water cooling generally isn't one of them. The radiator is adequately sized.

Also, the DCT is an EXTRA cooler for the transmission, and the car was not designed to need it, so you may be overkill on that.

HOWEVER, Nissan has been known for inadequate oil and brake cooling even on the 370 (one faceplanted at VIR during the "Lightning Lap" competition due to overheated brakes, and an EXTRA oil cooler is required for track use).

As noted by lots of people here, the oil cooler is the weak link past driveline cooling. If you're going to use water, put it ALL where the problem is. Divert EVERYTHING outside of brakes to the oil cooler. If it succeeds and gets the oil temps down, then you can turn on one or two misters to DCT and radiator to see what the differences are, but I'm with Bish, but I think the DCT cooler can be momentarily neglected because its extra anyway.

Shawn
 

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David's data shows that oil temps were getting to 270F (132 C) with the misters applied. That oil is much too hot, Nissan manual says to change oil immediately if it ever reaches 266F (130C). Drivers should back off the throttle on track when temps get close to the red zone on the temp gages. Those oil temps tell me a bigger or extra oil radiator is needed, and/or more airflow.
 

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David's data shows that oil temps were getting to 270F (132 C) with the misters applied. That oil is much too hot, Nissan manual says to change oil immediately if it ever reaches 266F (130C). Drivers should back off the throttle on track when temps get close to the red zone on the temp gages. Those oil temps tell me a bigger or extra oil radiator is needed, and/or more airflow.
The issue is: who wants to back off during the last few laps of a run session? Not me. So we to find a way to keep the temps < 266F. Perhaps additional 'misting' to the oil cooler can make that happen, especially for those people who can't use the Cobb secondary oil cooler due to using the HKS/GReddy DCT cooler.

Bish
 
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